The power of Will

Mercutio said:
If "feeling of desire" is positively correlated with survival, our next question, practically speaking, is A) can we directly manipulate "feeling of desire"? (answer: no),

Hey Merc,
I guess maybe I'm not following here. Why is the answer no? It seems to me that our feelings of desire are manipulated on a daily basis. Just ask any advertisement firm!
And where does a positive attitude come from? My answer would be 'the will to have one', thus making will a real factor. What am I missing here?
 
Mercutio said:
No behaviorist denies feelings, though. The question about feelings is, are they causal, or simply caused? I welcome counterexamples, of course, but so far every single instance of "will to survive" has been circularly defined from the fact of survival.

I don't think the subjective feeling of desire has to be circularly defined. For example, why can't we simply ask our subjects to tell us whether they feel a "will to win" before the task in hand? Granted, this is not measuring the subjective quality directly, but what subjective quality can be measured directly? Instead, this dissociates the after-the-fact measurement of the outcome of the task from the before-the-task measurement of the level of subjective feelings.

I agree that the pertinent question in this thread is whether the feeling of "will" is caused or causal.



If "feeling of desire" is positively correlated with survival, our next question, practically speaking, is A) can we directly manipulate "feeling of desire"? (answer: no), and B) what factors which we can manipulate are associated with "feeling of desire"? As before (in one of my above posts), even though we start out with "manipulate this, to influence "feeling of desire", to influence survival", the very fact that we cannot directly manipulate feeling of desire reduces our equation to "manipulate this, to influence survival". In a very practical sense, the feelings involved are irrelevant (I do not suggest that they are irrelevant to the patient, nor that they do not exist, but until we can directly manipulate them, pragmatism dictates that we deal with the things we can manipulate).

Which brings us back to the question of whether "will" is causal or not. Directly manipulating any cognitive processes might imply that "will" is causal, if a decent definition of "will" could be made. What one means by "direct manipulation" is a also a difficult thing to define indeed!

What we seem to be agreeing on is that the feeling of "will to win" is real. If so then I can't see how it must be defined circularly. The circularity only comes in when one attempts to ascribe a causal nature to it.
 
The GM said:
Hey Merc,
I guess maybe I'm not following here. Why is the answer no? It seems to me that our feelings of desire are manipulated on a daily basis. Just ask any advertisement firm!
What they are manipulating, of course, is the advertising you see, not your feelings of desire. If I could directly manipulate feelings of desire, no advertising firm could compete with me! Push a button and you suddenly want to buy my product? wow...

And of course, they really don't care if you desire their product, merely that you buy it. If I could increase the desire for something but not increase the actual sales, would you hire me? Your shareholders would hope not.
And where does a positive attitude come from? My answer would be 'the will to have one', thus making will a real factor. What am I missing here?
Sure...where does the will to have one come from? Is there a will to have a will to have a positive attitude? Where did that come from? Perhaps a will to have a will to have a will to have turtles all the way down? This really is exactly the same logical problem as arguing for existence of god. Our evidence for "will" is simply the behavior we see (and yes, this includes the private behaviors we feel), which means that any attempt to say that "will" caused these behaviors (and feelings) is circular. The "will to have a will to have a will to have...." chain does, however, have an end. That end is the environmental factors which cause (or influence) your behavior. Those can be measured and manipulated (at least in principle), instead of merely inferred after the fact.
 
Mercutio said:
Our evidence for "will" is simply the behavior we see (and yes, this includes the private behaviors we feel), which means that any attempt to say that "will" caused these behaviors (and feelings) is circular. The "will to have a will to have a will to have...." chain does, however, have an end. That end is the environmental factors which cause (or influence) your behavior. Those can be measured and manipulated (at least in principle), instead of merely inferred after the fact.


That's interesting. Compare "will" with one of Newton's laws. If the evidence for Newton's laws is simply the behavior we see then is any attempt to say that Newton's laws caused the behaviors also a circular argument?
 
davidsmith73 said:
I don't think the subjective feeling of desire has to be circularly defined. For example, why can't we simply ask our subjects to tell us whether they feel a "will to win" before the task in hand? Granted, this is not measuring the subjective quality directly, but what subjective quality can be measured directly? Instead, this dissociates the after-the-fact measurement of the outcome of the task from the before-the-task measurement of the level of subjective feelings.
Well, yes and no. This is considerably better, but it comes at the expense of ignoring our normal use of the term "will to survive". In practice, it simply is not used a priori, and that which you describe here already has a different term within the experimental literature--self-efficacy.

So...this begins to get at the heart of the question. It is good to examine the different factors that lead to success or to survival. It is inaccurate to suggest that the things which we label "will to survive" are the same things as these factors. (Again, my example from above: I will eat this computer if any news outlet claims that the losing team in the Super Bowl lost despite having the greater will to win. It just is not used that way.*)

*I have seen people argue that a "less talented" team lost a game; "talent" is then operationalized somehow--faster runners, higher percentage shooters, more all-pro players--to demonstrate that the losing team was indeed "more talented". Almost invariably, then, the conclusion is that the winning team simply had more "will to win". This is never operationalized, merely conferred onto the winner after the fact. I have never seen any team with "greater will to win" actually lose a game.

I agree that the pertinent question in this thread is whether the feeling of "will" is caused or causal.
Agreed. But in practice, "will to win" is assumed to be causal. And that is my problem with it.


Which brings us back to the question of whether "will" is causal or not. Directly manipulating any cognitive processes might imply that "will" is causal, if a decent definition of "will" could be made. What one means by "direct manipulation" is a also a difficult thing to define indeed
Also agreed. We have no adjustment knobs on our brains, let alone on our "cognitive processes" (please, don't get a behaviorist started on "cognitive processes"...).

What we seem to be agreeing on is that the feeling of "will to win" is real. If so then I can't see how it must be defined circularly. The circularity only comes in when one attempts to ascribe a causal nature to it.
Which, I will argue, is the common use of the term. I have never personally seen it used in another way.

Also...what does "will to win" feel like? I can feel happy, sad, disgusted, surprised...there really are (according to the researchers, and this is not my specialty area) only a handful of basic emotions, and then some secondary ones...but "will to win" I have never seen on any list of emotions. What does it feel like?
 
davidsmith73 said:
That's interesting. Compare "will" with one of Newton's laws. If the evidence for Newton's laws is simply the behavior we see then is any attempt to say that Newton's laws caused the behaviors also a circular argument?
Newton's laws are descriptive. No one (correctly, at least) says that objects are drawn to one another because of gravity. They are drawn together, and that defines gravity. The cause of gravity is not part of Newton's laws.

Thank you for this example. It is exactly the point I am trying to get across.
 
Mercutio said:
Well, yes and no. This is considerably better, but it comes at the expense of ignoring our normal use of the term "will to survive". In practice, it simply is not used a priori, and that which you describe here already has a different term within the experimental literature--self-efficacy. [/B]


Yes I see your point. The former meaning is certainly one for contention.


Also...what does "will to win" feel like? I can feel happy, sad, disgusted, surprised...there really are (according to the researchers, and this is not my specialty area) only a handful of basic emotions, and then some secondary ones...but "will to win" I have never seen on any list of emotions. What does it feel like?

"Will" is usually associated with an end result for it to mean anything. I suppose it might be identified by holding a representation of a state of affairs in your mind. This state of affairs can either be desired or not. If you hold the state of affaits fixed and alternate between wanting and not wanting it then you might start to indentify it. That's the best I can do I'm afraid!
 
Mercutio said:
Newton's laws are descriptive. No one (correctly, at least) says that objects are drawn to one another because of gravity. They are drawn together, and that defines gravity. The cause of gravity is not part of Newton's laws.

Thank you for this example. It is exactly the point I am trying to get across.

mmm. The conclusion then must be that no scientific description can ascribe a cause to any event. I'm not sure where that leaves "will" now!
 
Mercutio said:
"Will to survive", like "will to win", is a circularly defined concept. It is only seen after the fact. The only evidence for your brother's amazing will to survive is...that he did. Had he not, everyone would be saying that "after a brave struggle, he simply gave up the will to survive." Again, the only evidence would have been his death.

If this weekend's Super Bowl goes the way every other one has, it will be won by the team that simply showed more "will to win". They just "wanted it more". Great. Circular. We infer from their victory that they had more will to win, and then attribute the victory to that will.

I am very happy that your brother has recovered. He had the care of a lot of people; he had how many blood transfusions? 30, was it? More? He had experts, and good prior health, and, frankly, the luck of the draw. It could have easily gone the other way, and has for many other accident victims. There are enough real reasons for his recovery for me to be comfortable with "and we really don't know all the other things that might have played a part" rather than turning "I don't know" into "will to survive."

But, hey, I am cynical that way.

I have also always had a problem with this "will to live" business. I am really curious - can people who do not want to live simply will themselves to die? I suspect not. While one may not have to will to take particular actions needed to sustain one's life, I think it is unlikely that will alone makes any difference one way or the other.
 
davidsmith73 said:
mmm. The conclusion then must be that no scientific description can ascribe a cause to any event. I'm not sure where that leaves "will" now!
Oh, no, not true at all. We can, through proper manipulation of variables, infer causation to a reasonable degree of probability (that probability varying tremendously among the sciences, depending on the inherent variability of the subject matter).

What we cannot do is ascribe causation, after the event, that is due to an alleged factor, the only evidence for which is the event it has allegedly caused! In a situation like this, our most honest answer must be "I don't know what the cause was." Fortunately for us, we can add one word to the sentence: "yet". "I don't know (yet)" opens up the question for investigation--we can begin to uncover what variables really do make a difference in survival. If, instead of "I don't know", we make up something (sorry that sounds so disparaging, but at base, that is what we are doing) called "will to survive" and attribute survival to that, it tempts us not to look further. We have discovered the answer--it depends on "will to survive". And while that does not preclude asking the question "ok, then, what does will to survive depend on?", it is, in practice, seldom if ever asked.

But yeah, even in the "explaining paranormal phenomena" business, when somebody describes the ghost they saw and asks you to explain it, your only honest answer is "I don't know." We can try to recreate the experience with more controls, and see whether it was car headlights, or swamp gas, or booze, or what...but after the fact explanations do not have the controls necessary for us to properly infer causation. (yeah, I know, it has not stopped people, but it should have.)
 
The GM said:
As a side note, here's some of the broadcast notes from the above referenced TV interview.
http://www.klbk.com/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=699
Neat story, but it is missing something...oh, yeah, a hot blonde in a black suit.

Erm...on topic... Note that the evidence for "god intervening" is exactly the same as the evidence for "will to survive". To wit...he survived. Both causal explanations (god and will) have only that as their evidence.
 
Mercutio said:
What they are manipulating, of course, is the advertising you see, not your feelings of desire. If I could directly manipulate feelings of desire, no advertising firm could compete with me! Push a button and you suddenly want to buy my product?
I think the roadblock here is in the phrase "directly manipulate." Very few things with humans or medicine is "direct manipulation," rather it is more "influence."

Example: Taking aspirin immediately after a heart attack increases your chances for survival.

Of course we can find sample who have taken aspirin yet perished. As well as those who did not and lived. Yet it is common medical belief that an aspirin "increases the odds" of survival.

I believe the same is true of "will to live" where an outside influence can directly affect survival rates.

Example: Patient 1 is in critical condition- friends and relatives from around the country face trial and tribulation to be at the bedside. Thus increasing the patients "desire to live."

Patient 2 in the same condition- is told that her children would love to be there but his daughter has to get her hair cut. Thus de-motivating the patient to pull through.

Can we "directly manipulate" the "will to win?" No. Probably not.
Can we "enfluence" the "will to win?" Often, yes.
 
I have noticed this thread thanks to Phil's nomination. Thanks Phil!

Before clicking on the thread after after I have read that Mercutio took part in the discussion I though : " Merc will suggest that it's the behavior not the will".

While I cannot really argue with that since I am sure that there is a lot of bibliography behind that statement I cannot help wondering Mercutio.

What do you think of the moral aspect of the power of will? If this belief ( correct me if I am wrong but even if you don't name it as such I feel that you perceive it as a belief) is a useful one why you appear tad negative in the way you approach it?

Is it because the phrase "The power of Will" has metaphysical implications, is it because it refers to a " super-human" ( the way Nitsche put it) , a concept that is quite religious in origin regardless of what ignorants say...or is it because religious people make use of it?

If it's the former then I have to point out that an atheist should encourage people to think like that because it places the human in the centre of his existence and not the God.

So what's the deal with you and the power or will? :) I am interested in the moral implications a useful belief has in a man's life. Why we dismiss it? Because it's the will and not the behavior? Who cares?! The man returned from Hades, this is all that counts!!

BTW Your initial post in the thread was great anyway. You seem to have cleared these things in you so well that I am impressed ( and tad envious).
 
Oh, boy.....there is a lot here to answer to. I apologize in advance for any rambling I no doubt will do. This topic, and very closely related notions, is a current topic in one of my senior seminars, so this thread is terribly useful for me...but it also means that my thinking may be clouded with questions not just from this thread...
Cleopatra said:
I have noticed this thread thanks to Phil's nomination. Thanks Phil!

Before clicking on the thread after after I have read that Mercutio took part in the discussion I though : " Merc will suggest that it's the behavior not the will".
Remember, Cleo, that "behavior" is "everything we do". It includes thinking, feeling, remembering, as well as walking, talking, etc. There was a thread several months back in which I even looked at love as a category of behaviors...which I also spoke of yesterday in class... So...why is this "will" different? Why is Mercutio so adamant that there is no behavior called "will to survive"? As mentioned before, it is because of its use--it is, in practice, always seen as causal and always inferred after the fact. As such, it is a purely circular concept, rather than a private behavior. More on this later, I suppose...

While I cannot really argue with that since I am sure that there is a lot of bibliography behind that statement I cannot help wondering Mercutio.

What do you think of the moral aspect of the power of will? If this belief ( correct me if I am wrong but even if you don't name it as such I feel that you perceive it as a belief) is a useful one why you appear tad negative in the way you approach it?
I am negative about it simply because it is fictional. In fact, the behavioral term for such things is "explanatory fiction"; an inferred causal element, the existence of which is evidenced only by the outcome it allegedly caused.

As such, my objection has nothing to do with any moral aspect at all, but I will make one small comment...and it may not really even address what you are asking...our society's notions of free will and personal moral responsibility overemphasize internal causation and underemphasize the impact of the environment. The stereotype of behaviorism denies any internal and overemphasizes the environment. (More accurately and less stereotypically, each individual responds to the contingencies of reinforcement and punishment. Just because we point to the environment for causation, we do not relieve the individual of their earned punishement or reinforcement! Individuals are held accountable by the contingencies, but the environment is not ignored, as it is when we assign moral responsibility soleley to the individual.) It is argued that, by assigning causation to the environment, we let the individual off the hook, blameless. The counter-argument to this is that when we assign causation to the will of the individual, we let the environment off the hook--we let ourselves out of any responsibility for the actions of others, when it is clearly and demonstrably the fact that we do influence their behavior.

Is it because the phrase "The power of Will" has metaphysical implications, is it because it refers to a " super-human" ( the way Nitsche put it) , a concept that is quite religious in origin regardless of what ignorants say...or is it because religious people make use of it?

If it's the former then I have to point out that an atheist should encourage people to think like that because it places the human in the centre of his existence and not the God.
Trading in one fiction for another may be tempting politically (if I am using the term right), but if we are truly trying to help, building on one false foundation is as bad as building on another false foundation. If we wish to help people survive horrendous accidents, we must study the real factors in their survival and build upon those.

So what's the deal with you and the power or will? :) I am interested in the moral implications a useful belief has in a man's life. Why we dismiss it? Because it's the will and not the behavior? Who cares?! The man returned from Hades, this is all that counts!!
I am interested in the practical implications a useful belief has. I do not dismiss it. I have mentioned a few attitudinal variables which are associated with survival (or with winning, in other examples). Self-efficacy, both generalized and specific to situation, perceived control (of many different varieties, according to the "control" researchers), and a couple others which elude memory right now, are attitudinal variables which can be measured in advance and which do predict survival (and winning). I am hugely in favor of researching such things, and doing what we can to make The GM's brother's story less rare.

But...as it is actually used (note that all attempts in this thread to operationalize "will to survive" or "will to live" have been forced to take it far from the natural usage of the term), "will to survive" is not something we can (even in principle) measure or manipulate, and so focusing attention on "will to survive" as a causal agent in survival is a waste of time and resources.

BTW Your initial post in the thread was great anyway. You seem to have cleared these things in you so well that I am impressed ( and tad envious).
Thank you! It is the result of many years' work, and not arrived at lightly.
 
What if I told you that " the power of will" can act as a reifoncer especially in cases of cancer?

What if I tell you that patients that seem to invest on this idea become more cooperative with the doctors, more sensitive to the drama of their own relatives abd ABOVE all the get over this dreadful feeling that cancer builts in you; the feeling that you are helpless and in the mercy of the illness.

The power of will can be used as a reifoncer for a positive behavior.

What about that.
 
Will? Of course he has power. Check "I, Robot". He dragged a horrible plot into a decent movie, and made you forget the original "I, Robot".

...Oh, that will. Sorry. My mistake.

...next time, watch your capitalization!
 
Cleopatra said:
What if I told you that " the power of will" can act as a reinforcer especially in cases of cancer?
I would probably give you a long lecture on using behavioral terms properly. Your statement may well make sense colloquially, but because I am used to the technical definitions of the words, I would have to ask "what behaviors are being reinforced?" and "how are you measuring power of will?", and probably a few other questions, before I even could address the question itself.

What if I tell you that patients that seem to invest on this idea become more cooperative with the doctors, more sensitive to the drama of their own relatives abd ABOVE all the get over this dreadful feeling that cancer builts in you; the feeling that you are helpless and in the mercy of the illness.
I would say "we must look at this more closely, because something would seem to be working; now, let us see whether it is 'will' or cooperation with doctors and sensitivity to relatives, etc." When we are more precise in our definitions and manipulations, we see more clearly the effects that are there--we may also see more clearly that some of what we thought was there was illusory. Are you certain the situation is as you describe it? Could you be seeing something merely because you expect to? (If you are human, the answer is "of course, yes, I could be...) Have you (or has anyone else) systematically studied this? (This is not merely a rhetorical question--I know that similar things have been systematically studied, like feelings of control, as I mention below.)

I will exclude no variable from consideration--if you can operationalize "power of will" in such a way that it can be emperically examined, I say go for it. (Note, please, that as I describe its normal use and circular definition, it is not empirically defined, so yours would be very different from the concept as it is usually used.)

I agree with you wholeheartedly that helplessness is a factor--a terrible one--in the morbity of diseases like cancer. I say this because the helplessness/control variable has been empirically examined (I can find the specific references if you like). Again, though (I must sound like a broken record), I must point out that control and helplessness can be manipulated, and thus far "will to survive" is not.

The power of will can be used as a reinforcer for a positive behavior.
Not when it is circularly defined. It might make us feel better to talk about the power of will, but if it is used the way it usually is, it is a fairy tale.

If you can operationalize it such that it can be measured before the fact and manipulated such that we can infer causation (I doubt that we can use a reversal design, but a time-lag across subjects would do), you would do what none has done before.

What about that.
What about it? Your use of the cancer example, along with The GM's brother and jmercer's father, as well as countless other examples here and elsewhere, make it clear: this is not merely an exercise in philosophy, this is a life and death matter. This is more important than mere wordplay. It is imperative, because lives are on the line, to look at what really does work, and to build on that, rather than to build on illusion, no matter how strongly held. There are so many examples of "will to survive" making a difference...we take it for granted, and it never occurs to us to think otherwise. Only when we apply the tools of critical thinking and science do we start to see...ah, these examples are all anecdotes, in which the "will to survive" was determined purely by the survival of the individual...the term, as we use it, is useless. It is there to disguise the fact that we do not know why this person survived.

I think it is much too important an ignorance to disguise it. If we do not know, dammit, let's find out, if at all possible! "Will to live", as it is used, gives us a reason to stop looking, or worse, an incentive to look at a false lead!

"Will to survive" is a cherished notion. It does, I think, make people feel better, feel they have more control than they otherwise might in a largely uncontrollable situation. If it were not for the fact that this is a life and death matter, I might not bother arguing about "will to survive." But it is a matter of life and death, and cherished notions be damned; if it is my loved one who is sick or injured, I want treatment built on a solid foundation, not on cherished fairy tales.
 
Perhaps we should discuss what the difference in lifestyle is between someone who has the "will to live" and someone who doesn't.

People have already cited the effect attitude has on eating, drinking, etc. Someone who's lost the will to live becomes sluggish, doesn't eat well or properly, doesn't get enough exercise, fails to take medicine on time, refuses to accept therapy, becomes depressed and anxious, etc., etc. All of these things tend to run a body down, lower resistance to disease, and create stress which also harms the body over time. These things can become critical factors - especially if the injury or treatment already lowers the immune system's ability to protect the body.

So in my opinion, a lack of will to live actually harms a person - or drives them to indirectly harm themselves.

Alternatively, my father's desire to live got him out of bed after the liver operation amazingly fast, and drove him to become physically active quite quickly. He kept an optimistic attitude, ate well, and actually took better care of himself than he did before his diagnosis. These things all served to help maintain his immune system and kept his body healthy other than the cancer.

All of these factors certainly contributed to his survival - especially with periodic chemo and radiation therapy being the norm. His ability to sustain those activities for as long as he did was - in my opinion - directly due to his will to survive, which changed his lifestyle dramatically.

There may or may not be any more to it than this. I don't know. But I think that these items are significant enough that people with the "will to live" increase their chance of survival through sustaining these activities and actions.
 
GM,

The GM said:
To the amazement of the docs and nurses there, the kid's brainwaves went from flat to a blip, from blips to activity. Within a week, he was awake.
Where was the "will to live" in this crucially important phase of this kid's recovery? And, if he got to this stage without a "will to live", why do you assign such an important role to a supposed "will to live" in the subsequent (surely much less crucial) stages of his recovery?

BJ
 

Back
Top Bottom