The Power of Nightmares

[Par]

We didn't find thousands of Al Qaeda fighters in massive underground command complexes in Afghanistan because they never existed. They were just figments of Neocon imagination.

The fighters or the complexes?

 

[Gazpacho]

We didn't find thousands of Al Qaeda fighters in massive underground command complexes in Afghanistan because they never existed. They were just figments of Neocon imagination.

What, you mean the over-the-top illustration in the London Times? That's called "selling newspapers."

 

[GreNME]

What, you mean the over-the-top illustration in the London Times? That's called "selling newspapers."

That's an extreme example, but many like it, yes.

It's not that al Qaeda isn't dangerous-- the organization is definitely dangerous-- but that the group is not dangerous in the way that our current leadership is attempting to fight it. The first step in defeating an enemy is to have a clearly defined target, and it should be fairly commonly understood (whether you are conservative, liberal, or some mixture) that the Bush administration has done a poor job of keeping goalposts in place. The movie basically says that, though I'd agree that it says as much using quite a bit of negative hyperbole toward the neocon movement.

Without turning this into a political debate, I'll just point out that this is something that not only those with left-wing agendas have been saying. I wrote it off as such until I listened to an interview with Victor Gold, who I wouldn't confuse with being liberal (he's a former speech writer for and a friend to GHW Bush). I mean, jeez, even Pat Buchanan has criticized the Bush administration, and you don't get much more fundamentalist than that. So, yes, the series does take aim at key players in the Bush administration and the neoconservative movement in general. However, to liken it to Michael Moore's BS is over the top.

It doesn't paint al Qaeda as "Arabs in caves" so much as it paints its leaders as charismatic organizers that have worked hard to link several different militant groups into similar purposes and goals. That is what makes al Qaeda dangerous, and the series looks into how these leaders got their start.

The series contrasts that with the neocon movement in that the early neocons similarly organized several similar-but-not-the-same groups toward their own goals, and questions both the rationality of those goals as well as their effectiveness at protecting people from the terrorists. One of the things the series delves into is how they both utilize collective fear of the "unknown" aspects of the perceived enemy, and how that is ultimately detrimental to everyone involved. It's this that I found particularly poignant about the series, because I believe there is a lot of relevance to what they're saying, and because (separate from the series) I think that could be a key aspect of this terrorist organization that could be used to break them down. Like the old saying goes, if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem starts looking like a nail, and I think what this series does is highlight how the neocon movement seems mostly equipped with figurative hammers in a time when not every problem we're facing with global terrorism is a (figurative) nail.

 

[Gazpacho]

Also:

The point made in The Power of Nightmares was that Al Qaeda was a small organization with informal connections to other jihadist groups.

Al-Qaeda is the connections, which do not need to be formal, whatever that means, to be effective. It is not the personalities, or the ideology, or anything else. It is the coordination among these groups. Calling al-Qaeda "a small organization with connections" is like calling the USA a small district with connections.

 

[Travis]

One of the things the series delves into is how they both utilize collective fear of the "unknown" aspects of the perceived enemy, and how that is ultimately detrimental to everyone involved.

Considering how widely disseminated American Culture is what is there about the US that is "unknown" to those that Al Qaeda uses?

 

[GreNME]

Considering how widely disseminated American Culture is what is there about the US that is "unknown" to those that Al Qaeda uses?

It doesn't have to be completely unknown. Many of the Afghans who have chosen to fight for the Taliban couldn't find New York on a map, nor could they likely tell you the ingredients to a hoagie (sub sandwich). They don't much care who Brad Pitt or Kanye West or A-Rod is. Most of them don't know the debate going on in America about detainee treatment or whether some groups are demanding reasonable fairness in their treatment. It falls completely outside of the realm of relevance to their daily lives. The entity that groups al Qaeda organizes people to fight against in most of their minds is a caricature (at best) of the reality of their perceived target. Dissemination, depending on the part of the world you're talking about, is very selective. That's what these leaders are taking advantage of.

 

[Travis]

It doesn't have to be completely unknown. Many of the Afghans who have chosen to fight for the Taliban couldn't find New York on a map, nor could they likely tell you the ingredients to a hoagie (sub sandwich). They don't much care who Brad Pitt or Kanye West or A-Rod is. Most of them don't know the debate going on in America about detainee treatment or whether some groups are demanding reasonable fairness in their treatment. It falls completely outside of the realm of relevance to their daily lives. The entity that groups al Qaeda organizes people to fight against in most of their minds is a caricature (at best) of the reality of their perceived target. Dissemination, depending on the part of the world you're talking about, is very selective. That's what these leaders are taking advantage of.

Well, I have heard that many in the Middle East vastly over estimate the Jewish population in America. Some thinking that over 60% of Americans are Jewish. I was wondering if misconceptions like that were contributing to Al Qaeda's cause.

 

[GreNME]

Well, I have heard that many in the Middle East vastly over estimate the Jewish population in America. Some thinking that over 60% of Americans are Jewish. I was wondering if misconceptions like that were contributing to Al Qaeda's cause.

It would depend on the country. I apologize, using Afghanistan is a bad example because it's so very stark and shocking at how many of these people we're fighting as enemies don't really have a beef with us outside of being angry that their homes and working fields have been bombed. In much of the Arab Middle East (Afghanistan is very little Arab, and almost all the Arabs are of foreign origin), the view you point out regarding Jews and Israel is present in some areas. In others it's more ambiguous and centers around the current presidential administration, whom they often feel the whole of the US supports entirely. Kabul, Amman, Dubai-- in these cities you're going to find less misconceptions of the type that al Qaeda can take advantage of about the US, because they have more commerce, more education, and more discretionary money floating about in people's hands. Unfortunately most of the Middle-East is very much not like these cities, which provides fertile recruiting ground for agencies in support of or directly related to al Qaeda.

Not ironically, Baghdad was one such city as well, but since its decline during the war it hasn't been good for keeping out the militant groups that al Qaeda can take advantage of. Even worse, there are other militant groups (under leaders like al Sistani or al Sadr) who don't seem to like al Qaeda but are also hostile (mostly politically hostile, currently) toward the American presence. One tactic that the US has employed in intelligence wars-- the concept of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"-- is far more complex and difficult with our current wars, and on top of that there are very strong arguments that such approaches contributed to our current enemies having the chance to attack us in the first place.

The whole situation with regard to international terrorism is a complex one, and the series covers two entities, one on each 'side', and displayed how both reduce their descriptions of the other to a boogeyman, useful only for inciting more aggression against the other. Lake any other mass-media 'expose' it doesn't quite get all of the characterizations completely accurate, but the ideas it conveys are relevant and, in this case (I think), accurate.

 

[gumboot]

I would love the day a western leader would have the balls to actually identify what the "War on Terror" is actually against.

It's not about terrorism. Terrorism is not a threat. Terrorism will never threaten the west. Yes, it might kill lots of westerners, and yes it might even influence decisions westerners make, but it will never actually seriously threaten us.

The threat is Radical Islam. No one wants to say it, because it's un-PC, but it's true. Groups like Al Qaeda are merely a product of the threat, not the threat itself.

And Radical Islam is vastly more widespread and vastly more dangerous than terrorism could ever hope to be.

The problem that western governments have got into is they don't want to admit they're fighting a religion, so instead they claim to be combating terrorism, that becomes a place-holder threat, taking the place of the political-suicide "War on Radical Islam". But in order to address the seriousness of the real threat, they have to exaggerate the danger of their place-holder threat. And then they get caught in their lie - not a difficult feat because it's obvious to anyone with a brain that terrorism is not really a threat - and the end result is most people then conclude there's no threat at all.

And all the while Radical Islam grows and spreads and becomes increasingly rooted in the cultures from which it is feeding.

 

[GreNME]

The only flaw I see in what you're saying is that even were we to completely eradicate radical Islam, someone else would eventually step into that same role. Even if we eradicated religion altogether, people with the same tactics and motivations would pop up, killing people for their self-righteous cause.

 

[gumboot]

The only flaw I see in what you're saying is that even were we to completely eradicate radical Islam, someone else would eventually step into that same role. Even if we eradicated religion altogether, people with the same tactics and motivations would pop up, killing people for their self-righteous cause.

I don't think the threat of radical Islam is that they're killing people and using terrorism. If anything that's the least dangerous of the things they do.

You're quite right that the world will never be free of threats, but that's no argument for addressing whatever the current threats are.

 

[Par]

The only flaw I see in what you're saying is that even were we to completely eradicate radical Islam, someone else would eventually step into that same role. Even if we eradicated religion altogether, people with the same tactics and motivations would pop up, killing people for their self-righteous cause.

One could presumably say much the same thing about, say, ordinary fascism, however. But we should still recognise and fight fascism. Yes, likely there will always be demagoguery, utopias notwithstanding. But I’m not sure what follows from that fact.

 

[GreNME]

The point that follows is that it isn't just "Radical Islam" that threatens much of the world. The point is that the threat involves those of all types-- religion, politics, social class, or otherwise-- who would use violence and murder to intimidate others into doing what they want. Yes, one should battle fascism wherever it comes up, and "terrorism" is generally the anarchist version of fascism, with the few influencing the many through means of force. I'm saying that narrowing it down to "Radical Islam" is a constrictive distinction.

My problem with the "War on Terror(ism)" is that it's a solution seeking out a problem, not that its targets aren't defined. The reason I say that is because the "solution" can remain the same (war) indefinitely while the "problem" constantly shifts targets, effectively being a new, less-defined version of the Cold War without the monolithic "Red Menace" to blame as the source.

 

[gumboot]

The point that follows is that it isn't just "Radical Islam" that threatens much of the world. The point is that the threat involves those of all types-- religion, politics, social class, or otherwise-- who would use violence and murder to intimidate others into doing what they want. Yes, one should battle fascism wherever it comes up, and "terrorism" is generally the anarchist version of fascism, with the few influencing the many through means of force. I'm saying that narrowing it down to "Radical Islam" is a constrictive distinction.

My problem with the "War on Terror(ism)" is that it's a solution seeking out a problem, not that its targets aren't defined. The reason I say that is because the "solution" can remain the same (war) indefinitely while the "problem" constantly shifts targets, effectively being a new, less-defined version of the Cold War without the monolithic "Red Menace" to blame as the source.

I don't think "violence and murder to intimidate others into doing what they want" is the problem at all though. I'd agree with your issues on the second point - like I said I don't think terrorism is the problem, and I don't think trying to "wage war" on it is very useful.

It's the ideology of a particular bunch of people, some of whom happen to use terrorism, that is the problem, and

A) You won't defeat an ideology with a war
B) The members of this ideology committing terrorism are IMHO, not the biggest threat

The entire "War On Terror" is a huge, huge mistake.

 

[Tom Morris]

I've watched it, but I thought it was the weakest of the Adam Curtis documentary series I've seen. I very much enjoyed The Century of the Self and The Trap.

The Strauss-demonising is, as D'rok says, OTT. He was far more political philosopher and less demon than The Power of Nightmares makes out, as a trip to any good academic library or bookshop will tell you. You can't choose your posthumous acolytes after all.

 

[GreNME]

Well, despite possibly disagreeing on the particulars:

The entire "War On Terror" is a huge, huge mistake.

I can happily say I agree with you wholeheartedly on that mark.

 

[Kestrel]

What, you mean the over-the-top illustration in the London Times? That's called "selling newspapers."

According to Donald Rumsfeld, the London Times illustration was accurate:

Russert: The Times of London did a graphic, which I want to put on the screen for you and our viewers. This is it. This is a fortress. This is a very much a complex, multi-tiered, bedrooms and offices on the top, as you can see, secret exits on the side and on the bottom, cut deep to avoid thermal detection so when our planes fly to try to determine if any human beings are in there, it's built so deeply down and embedded in the mountain and the rock it's hard to detect. And over here, valleys guarded, as you can see, by some Taliban soldiers. A ventilation system to allow people to breathe and to carry on. An arms and ammunition depot. And you can see here the exits leading into it and the entrances large enough to drive trucks and cars and even tanks. And it's own hydroelectric power to help keep lights on, even computer systems and telephone systems. It's a very sophisticated operation.

Rumsfeld: Oh, you bet. This is serious business. And there's not one of those. There are many of those. And they have been used very effectively. And I might add, Afghanistan is not the only country that has gone underground. Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe. And people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves.

Rumsfeld was not selling newspapers, he was selling fear.

 

[SDC]

Hmmm.. Here in Manhattan, massive tunnelling projects are going on. Ostensibly, it's for new train lines, but perhaps a Conspiracy Theory can be built from it.

Which is preferred: Al-Qaeda infiltrator sandhogs or Mossad sandhogs?

(Sandhogs = name for the guys tunnelling. Evidently a traditional and honored trade hereabouts.)