The pot calling the kettle black...

[FireGarden]

Thanks for the link. Actually that link has not been quoted but it's just a rehash of the original news story that is making it's way across the globe since Monday Feb the 1st. What I find telling is that HRW claims Jordan has been doing this since 2004. I am curious why I cannot find anything concrete prior to a couple days ago regarding this subject. Seems it was a little-known until HRW released a report on it. My position is if HRW is good enough to shine a spotlight on Israel, then it certainly must be good enough to shine a spotlight on Jordan.

HRW is great. Jordan is wrong in what it is doing. According to the claim itself, Jordan is doing what it is doing quietly -- people don't seem to find out they've lost their citizenship until they try to renew their passports.

So the situation is: story breaks -- some time ago, ddt linked to the Nakba thread where this subject was brought up -- story is checked by HRW watch; story gains legs.

What is the mystery?

 

[Thunder]

Still more evasion.

You know, we'd be done by now if you had answered the first time around.

You know what? you are right. I should be more mature. This is JREF, after all.

I promise to honestly and thoroughly answer your question.

......but only if you say "pretty, pretty, please".

sound fair? I think it does.

 

[ddt]

I repeat myself verbatim because semantic obfuscation is a very popular game at JREF. I've seen pages and pages wasted putting the train back on the tracks merely because a poster said something slighlty different than what they said a couple posts earlier. You should be happy that I am working to be precise.

I don't see how repeating a paragraph helps that. When it comes to pages and pages wasted - I only have to think of the burqa discussion.

But enough of that - care to react to the rest of my post? I note you only reacted to one quite inconsequential remark and not to the meat of the post.

 

[ZARDOZ]

I don't see how repeating a paragraph helps that. When it comes to pages and pages wasted - I only have to think of the burqa discussion.

The burqa discussion became what it was because other JREF posters tried to dismiss the qualifications of the head Imam of the oldest mosque in Egypt who also runs the oldest muslim university in the world. And sadly I kept having to repost his qualifications endlessly so that his qualifications remained front and center - (rather than obfuscated under the thousand different asinine dismissals of his qualifications.)

But enough of that - care to react to the rest of my post? I note you only reacted to one quite inconsequential remark and not to the meat of the post.

Actually I don't feel a need to react to the rest of your post. My purpose here is not to debate this issue.. there is nothing to debate. I just was amazed that an Arab country which I thought was progressive is still working behind the scenes to make Palestinians stateless and homeless. And I am frankly surprised that this has been going on since 2004 virtually unreported.

 

[ddt]

The burqa discussion became what it was because other JREF posters tried to dismiss the qualifications of the head Imam of the oldest mosque in Egypt who also runs the oldest muslim university in the world. And sadly I kept having to repost his qualifications endlessly so that his qualifications remained front and center - (rather than obfuscated under the thousand different asinine dismissals of his qualifications.)

Of course, that's one big lie. I dare you to quote just ONE "asinine dismissal of his qualifications". People just argued it wasn't relevant as the guy doesn't speak for all of Islam.

Actually I don't feel a need to react to the rest of your post. My purpose here is not to debate this issue.. there is nothing to debate. I just was amazed that an Arab country which I thought was progressive is still working behind the scenes to make Palestinians stateless and homeless. And I am frankly surprised that this has been going on since 2004 virtually unreported.

So why then put out the questions? Whether anyone heard of it - phrased as if it were a rhetorical question.
The claim it wasn't mentioned in the Arab world - which was easily refuted. That sounded as if you hadn't looked at all - no-one's google-fu can suck so much that you don't find the links I gave.

And then there's your incredulity it wasn't mentioned in the MSM before. You raised that question, then it behooves you to react to people who put explanations forward, e.g., to me, and to FireGarden.

 

[ZARDOZ]

Of course, that's one big lie. I dare you to quote just ONE "asinine dismissal of his qualifications". People just argued it wasn't relevant as the guy doesn't speak for all of Islam.

And that thread wasn't about "the head of Al-Azhar mosque and university speaks for all muslims." It wasn't the intent of the thread, nor was I arguing that "the head of Al-Azhar mosque and university speaks for all muslims." But that's what is became due to a strawman. Enough of the derail.

The claim it wasn't mentioned in the Arab world - which was easily refuted. That sounded as if you hadn't looked at all - no-one's google-fu can suck so much that you don't find the links I gave.

Three of the four "links you provided" were a re-print of the original story I linked initially from that same day. Crack detective work ddt. Scotland Yard is calling. Yet Jordan has been stripping Jordanians of their Jordanian citizenships - because they are of Palestinian descent - since 2004. I said:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.

I guess what I should have said so that you simply can't be blatantly argumentative is:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one until today.

Anyhow I've noticed you really haven't debated the issue at all, rather my participation in it. That's why I don't feel the need to react to your posts generally.

And then there's your incredulity it wasn't mentioned in the MSM before.

Once again you act like you proved something but your "proof" is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You linked to a thread about "the Nakba" in which Marc39 linked to a story about Palestinians being evicted from Jordan. This thread is about JORDANIAN CITIZENS of Palestinian descent who have has their nationality stripped from them. it is not about "the Nakba" or "evictions of Palestinians from Jordan." I just want to be clear about that.

 

[applecorped]

I should be more mature.

But.........

 

[ddt]

And that thread wasn't about "the head of Al-Azhar mosque and university speaks for all muslims." It wasn't the intent of the thread, nor was I arguing that "the head of Al-Azhar mosque and university speaks for all muslims." But that's what is became due to a strawman. Enough of the derail.

I see. So there were no "asinine dismissals" in that thread - otherwise, you could have linked to one.

Three of the four "links you provided" were a re-print of the original story I linked initially from that same day. Crack detective work ddt. Scotland Yard is calling. Yet Jordan has been stripping Jordanians of their Jordanian citizenships - because they are of Palestinian descent - since 2004. I said:

Need help with those goalposts? It was reported in the Arab press. You claimed it wasn't. You just didn't look.

I guess what I should have said so that you simply can't be blatantly argumentative is:

Ex post facto attempt at justification. And your silence as to both my explanation why this issue hasn't widely hit the press, as well as FireGarden's, is, methinks, telling.

Anyhow I've noticed you really haven't debated the issue at all, rather my participation in it. That's why I don't feel the need to react to your posts generally.

Cheap cop-out. I have given my opinion on the matter. Just read my posts a bit more carefully.

Once again you act like you proved something but your "proof" is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You linked to a thread about "the Nakba" in which Marc39 linked to a story about Palestinians being evicted from Jordan. This thread is about JORDANIAN CITIZENS of Palestinian descent who have has their nationality stripped from them. it is not about "the Nakba" or "evictions of Palestinians from Jordan." I just want to be clear about that.

Ever heard of thread derail? Marc39 linked to the story and it was discussed in that thread. And that discussion reveals that it is the same story. Look at post #471 from FireGarden:

Jordan is evicting Palestiniains. Israel can do so, too...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1246443863400

Your own source says:

Several Jordanian government officials, they said, are convinced that Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman are secretly working toward turning Jordan into a Palestinian state.

As a preemptive measure, the Jordanian authorities recently began revoking the citizenship of thousands of Palestinians, leaving many of them in a state of panic and uncertainty regarding the future.

The Jordanians have justified the latest measure by arguing that it's aimed at avoiding a situation in which the Palestinians would ever be prevented from returning to their original homes inside Israel.

<snip>

So, again you fail for lack of reading links other people provide. Oh, and here is a link to the JPost (the link Marc39 gave seems to not work anymore).

 

[ZARDOZ]

Need help with those goalposts? It was reported in the Arab press. You claimed it wasn't. You just didn't look.

Three out of the four links you provided in this thread were reprints of the story I provided. So you didn't do anything relevant or important. The "holy grail" link Marc39 provided in that Nakba thread was AN ISRAELI NEWSPAPER - which IS NOT "in the Arab press."

Frankly I am done with your need to make yourself seem relevant.

Have a nice day ddt.

 

[FireGarden]

The HRW report cites the Arab press:
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/3

On July 3, 2009, journalist Bassam Badarin wrote in Al-Quds Al-Arabi that Minister of Interior Nayif al-Qadi considered allegations of arbitrary withdrawals of nationality part of "an Israeli conspiracy."

and, citing Khetam Malkawi, "House Panel Backs Ministry Procedures on 'Citizenship Revocation,'" Jordan Times, July 17, 2009:

The Jordan Times quoted unnamed "Interior officials" as defending withdrawal of nationality of Jordanians of Palestinian origin as a means to "counter Israeli policies to 'empty the Palestinian lands from their legitimate residents.'"

The JPost article is dated 20th July, so it doesn't seem to be the first mention of the story, though it does seem to be the most quoted on the net.

Of course, now that HRW have investigated and published their report, the story is in many more places.

 

[ddt]

Three out of the four links you provided in this thread were reprints of the story I provided. So you didn't do anything relevant or important.

You claimed the Arab world was silent. From your OP:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.

The fact that my links were "reprints" of the story you provided doesn't say anything. Probably they're all verbatim reprints of a press agency story. That's very common. All I expect from you is to acknowledge your claim in the OP was factually incorrect. And well, see FireGarden's latest post for more evidence to the contrary of your claim in the OP.

The "holy grail" link Marc39 provided in that Nakba thread was AN ISRAELI NEWSPAPER - which IS NOT "in the Arab press."

So what? That wasn't the point of that link. But we've already seen that reading comprehension isn't your forte. From your post #5:

Anyone here hear about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent?

So you've got an answer. FireGarden knew about it. I knew about it. A couple more people, who engaged in that thread, knew about it. Now care to acknowledge that?

Frankly I am done with your need to make yourself seem relevant.

This puts the thread title in a different perspective.

 

[ZARDOZ]

The HRW report cites the Arab press:
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/3
and, citing Khetam Malkawi, "House Panel Backs Ministry Procedures on 'Citizenship Revocation,'" Jordan Times, July 17, 2009:

The JPost article is dated 20th July, so it doesn't seem to be the first mention of the story, though it does seem to be the most quoted on the net.

Of course, now that HRW have investigated and published their report, the story is in many more places.

Thanks Firegarden. It's funny but anything Israeli looks at a Palestinian the wrong way and it's big news. Jordan has been stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent since 2006-ish and there's hardly been a blip on the radar. That was the intent of my comment when I said:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.

I was not maligning the Arab press when I said that, or equivocally laying down a written-in-stone claim that the Arab press never said anything ever in recorded history.

I made an innocent comment that considering the seriousness of stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent for the past few years one would think it would get more press in the Arab world. That's all. Frankly ddt's semantic games on this point are useless, derailing and argumentative.

You claimed the Arab world was silent. From your OP:

Dude. You have a real issue with your self importance. How about you lighten up a bit and realize that when I said:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.

...that in no way is that a claim that NOTHING was ever said ever in recorded history. Rather I was amazed that Arab countries and pro-Palestinian supporters don't seem to be at the UN protesting.. or marching in European cities.. or boycotting Jordanian products.. (like they do for Israel) ..considering that Jordan is stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent.

Have a nice day.

 

[FireGarden]

Thanks Firegarden.

You're welcome.

It's funny but anything Israeli looks at a Palestinian the wrong way and it's big news. Jordan has been stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent since 2006-ish and there's hardly been a blip on the radar.

Judging by this forum, one of the reasons Israel is bigger news is because it attracts more defence. This itself creates more interest. Other than from Jordanian officials, I have seen no defence of Jordan's actions.

As for the timing of the response...
As I said before, Jordan was doing this in secret. It wasn't even telling people that their citizenship had been revoked. They found out when trying to renew documents -- possibly years after they lost citizenship. I imagine that some of these people went to lawyers and then to journalists with their problems. As more of these stories emerged, the pattern became clear and the story broke. HRW investigated, published their report and the story has become bigger news. I really don't find this surprising.

I was not maligning the Arab press when I said that, or equivocally laying down a written-in-stone claim that the Arab press never said anything ever in recorded history.

I'm sorry that you're upset at the quality of responses you've received. Some of this may be down to our misunderstanding you. Some of it may be down to the terse method of responding to direct questions. Such as:

Lemme see. Anyone here hear about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent? I haven't heard a peep until today.

ddt gave you a clear answer to that: Yes, we had heard of this before -- last year, as evidenced by the thread he linked.

I'd be happy to make Parky happy if anyone can find me an Arab-based link to this story which should really be rocking the Arab world.

And again, links were provided.
These were from after the HRW report, and you then wanted some from before. It turns out that HRW itself cited such reports.

I made an innocent comment that considering the seriousness of stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent for the past few years one would think it would get more press in the Arab world. That's all. Frankly ddt's semantic games on this point are useless, derailing and argumentative.

I happen to be a fan of ddt. (The poster!)
And I don't think your comment was innocent. It was very loaded, right from the OP when you refered to Israel. You may not have intended to load it that way, but that is the way you came across.

 

[ZARDOZ]

Marc, you are becoming increasingly frustrated as your fabrications and factual errors are exposed...leading to the usual ad-homs. Under one of your new names would it be possible for you to try a new approach?

Once again I'm not Marc. But since this your second post - off topic - about Marc, I think you have a serious crush on Marc.

Judging by this forum, one of the reasons Israel is bigger news is because it attracts more defence. This itself creates more interest.

The funny part is Israel puts a hebrew date on a citizenship ID and you get a 13 plus page JREF opus on all the evils of Israel. While Jordan is secretly stripping Jordanian citizens of their nationality because they are of Palestinian descent and you get a 3 page derail about I didn't say something exacting enough for ddt, or that I'm someone named Marc.

Other than from Jordanian officials, I have seen no defence of Jordan's actions.

And I have never said anyone did defend it.

I'm sorry that you're upset at the quality of responses you've received. Some of this may be down to our misunderstanding you. Some of it may be down to the terse method of responding to direct questions. Such as:

ddt gave you a clear answer to that: Yes, we had heard of this before -- last year, as evidenced by the thread he linked.

It may come as a shock to some of you but I had never read that link before because I wasn't a member of JREF. But what I do find odd is that ddt is more focused in rubbing that thread in my face rather than discussing the topic, which is Jordan stripping Jordanian citizens of their nationality.

I happen to be a fan of ddt. (The poster!)
And I don't think your comment was innocent. It was very loaded, right from the OP when you refered to Israel. You may not have intended to load it that way, but that is the way you came across.

I referred to Israel because in the original link I based the op on.. the Jordanian government blamed Israel for Jordan stripping Jordanian citizens of their nationality.

Jordan, where a significant proportion of the nearly six million inhabitants are of Palestinian origin, has said the measure was a means to counter any Israeli plans to transfer Palestinians of the West Bank to the kingdom, according to HRW.

So my sarcasm when I innocently typed:

Well thank goodness it's really Israel's fault the Jordanians are revoking people's citizenship. After all... EVERYTHING is Israel's fault isn't it.

...was right on the nose. It wasn't out of line, or off topic, since according to the HRW Jordan is attempting to blame Israel for what they are doing. Which is obviously ridiculous. And it disappoints me because I always looked up to Jordan as a leader in that part of the world when it came to the rights of Palestinians and peace towards Israel. Yet they are still working on the Phased Plan to keep a people stateless even if they are originally Jordanians!

 

[Sporanox]

It may come as a shock to some of you but I had never read that link before because I wasn't a member of JREF. But what I do find odd is that ddt is more focused in rubbing that thread in my face rather than discussing the topic

Well, not that I'm a big Israel antagonist or anything, but the 13 pages on the Hebrew date are because we have some passionate Israel defenders here. Now, there are no Jordanian defenders.

Bottom line, everyone agrees that the behavior stated in the OP is reprehensible. That's the whole point of this thread, isn't it? I mean, what else is there to discuss?

 

[Thunder]

Now....back to Jordan and their silly little Palestinians.

 

[Locknar]

Ok folks...lets stick to the topic and stop the bickering; off-topic posts have been moved to AAH or Forum Management.

ETA: ZARDOZ is not a sockpuppet (see: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166568)

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[ZARDOZ]

ETA: ZARDOZ is not a sockpuppet (see: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166568) [/mod]

Thank you. The Fool and Parky will be happy to know that.

Back to the topic.

http://www.jordanembassyus.org/new/newsarchive/2009/12012009001.htm

His Majesty King Abdullah on Monday said Jordan would continue to extend all types of support to the Palestinians and use all means to highlight their suffering and empower them to establish their independent state.

Yet.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=36958

Jordan has revoked citizenship from nearly 3,000 Jordanians of Palestinian origin in recent years and should put a stop to the practice, Human Rights Watch (HRW) said in a report released Monday. HRW said 2,732 Palestinians were stripped of their Jordanian nationality between 2004 and 2008.

I'm confused.

I'd love to ask King Abdullah how stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent highlights Palestinian suffering and empowers them.

 

[Thunder]

I'd love to ask King Abdullah how stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent highlights Palestinian suffering and empowers them.

translation: "naa naa....boo boo.....I got you!!"

 

[applecorped]

translation: "naa naa....boo boo.....I got you!!"

Remember this?

Ok folks...lets stick to the topic and stop the bickering; off-topic posts have been moved to AAH or Forum Management.