The poor giving to the rich.

[Delphic Oracle]

Removing sanctions, which tend to most hurt the very people that had the least ability to do anything to stop what happened (and arguably the most to lose), on condition that some other penalty be paid first (again by people largely connected only in time and proximity) is many things.

A demonstration of something like "generosity" is not one of them.

 

[Thermal]

*families of the dead sailors aboard the USS Cole stare blankly at thread*

 

[Darat]

Is the money not going to the victims and families of the victims of the USS Cole? American prerequisite: settle the court case with the families.

NYT:One of those not admitting guilt/no contest pleas or something like it.


This isn't money being paid to the US government.

Do you consider a court settlement "imposed by one side"? Are the families considered "the rich" here?

Why should a USA Court be able to convict a foreign country?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why should a USA Court be able to convict a foreign country?

American Hubris is a whole other topic.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

*families of the dead sailors aboard the USS Cole stare blankly at thread*

A tragedy occurred.

That doesn't mean we don't get to have opinions or that you get to wield the spectre of the judgement of those impacted by the tragedy to shame those opinions into silence.

Same pushback thrown at anyone questioning why we want to drop bombs on Arabs. But those poor 9/11 victims, how can we let them down?

 

[Thermal]

A tragedy occurred.

A crime, in fact, for which Sudan bears some responsibility.

That doesn't mean we don't get to have opinions or that you get to wield the spectre of the judgement of those impacted by the tragedy to shame those opinions into silence.

Nor do you get to sweep the deaths of American servicepeople under the rug because we see Sudan a little differently now. It's not 'wielding the spectre' to remind you of what this settlement represents. This is not forgiving an agricultural loan.

Same pushback thrown at anyone questioning why we want to drop bombs on Arabs. But those poor 9/11 victims, how can we let them down?

No, we are not suggesting we kill the Sudanese in retribution. We are saying if they want to join the community of not-terrorist nations, own up to their past. My opinion is that it is proper, and the symbolic gesture now will likely pay off in spades for Sudan in the long run.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

A crime, in fact, for which a small cabal of tyrants and despots in Sudan bears some responsibility.

Just like Goldman Sachs did not become self aware on August 29th at 2:14am and invent the idea of derivatives and launch them against its strategic market targets.

Individual human persons did these things.

Leveling the penalty against a non-corporeal entity that will "pass the costs on" to other innocent parties, this is a result that makes people feel like "a message was sent that we won't stand for that behavior" when in reality, the exact opposite is true. You can do as you please and we'll pummel our pound of flesh for it from, well, who the hell cares as long as it provides some fleeting emotional satisfaction.

Nor do you get to sweep the deaths of American servicepeople under the rug because we see Sudan a little differently now. It's not 'wielding the spectre' to remind you of what this settlement represents. This is not forgiving an agricultural loan.

I didn't sweep anyone's deaths under anything. I'm discussing an issue.

**** you for implying that.

**** you again for using dead people's voices to shame me.

**** you a third time for being too much of a coward to just disagree with me and live with it.

I'm not remotely shocked you took this turn, I smelled the bait you were laying and took it on purpose to see if you'd actually take this nonsensical emotional thought-interrupter to warp 10 and you sure did.

No, we are not suggesting we kill the Sudanese in retribution. We are saying if they want to join the community of not-terrorist nations, own up to their past. My opinion is that it is proper, and the symbolic gesture now will likely pay off in spades for Sudan in the long run.

"They" must own up to "their" past.

Even the 99.9% of them who had jack **** to do with it and in many ways, were victims of the same tyrants we claim to be acting against with this decision that actually doesn't touch those tyrants one bit and, when you think about it, just inflicts more of the misery from their actions onto innocent people who don't deserve it.

Dropping bombs vs. suing them into even more destitution and misery wasn't the point. It was the form of the argument. Stay on topic for crying out loud.

Plus, the sheer hypocrisy of any western-aligned person to demand "owning up" is expected of entire populations of nations.

****.

THAT.

 

[Thermal]

Just like Goldman Sachs did not become self aware on August 29th at 2:14am and invent the idea of derivatives and launch them against its strategic market targets.

Individual human persons did these things.

Leveling the penalty against a non-corporeal entity that will "pass the costs on" to other innocent parties, this is a result that makes people feel like "a message was sent that we won't stand for that behavior" when in reality, the exact opposite is true. You can do as you please and we'll pummel our pound of flesh for it from, well, who the hell cares as long as it provides some fleeting emotional satisfaction.



I didn't sweep anyone's deaths under anything. I'm discussing an issue.

**** you for implying that.

**** you again for using dead people's voices to shame me.

**** you a third time for being too much of a coward to just disagree with me and live with it.

I'm not remotely shocked you took this turn, I smelled the bait you were laying and took it on purpose to see if you'd actually take this nonsensical emotional thought-interrupter to warp 10 and you sure did.



"They" must own up to "their" past.

Even the 99.9% of them who had jack **** to do with it and in many ways, were victims of the same tyrants we claim to be acting against with this decision that actually doesn't touch those tyrants one bit and, when you think about it, just inflicts more of the misery from their actions onto innocent people who don't deserve it.

Plus, the sheer hypocrisy of any western-aligned person to demand "owning up" is expected of entire populations of nations.

****.

THAT.

I thought this was a civil discussion. Imagine my surprise.

It won't be me reporting your recent hissy fit, but seriously, dude. Take a pill or something.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I thought this was a civil discussion. Imagine my surprise.

It won't be me reporting your recent hissy fit, but seriously, dude. Take a pill or something.

You accuse me of sweeping the deaths of men and women heroically serving their country under the rug.

But you want a "civil discussion?"

Go be a deceptive, gaslighting, psycho-manipulative dickbag to someone else.

In person.

See if you get a "civil discussion" that way, either.

 

[The Atheist]

Plus, the sheer hypocrisy of any western-aligned person to demand "owning up" is expected of entire populations of nations.

Loving your posts - we're very much on the same page.

America is the world's biggest terrorist organisation by almost infinity.

What you're seeing is the same effect I saw 25-30 years ago at the Hiroshima Memorial. I got talking to some people and said how awful it was. An American woman came out with "You should see what they did to our boys at Pearl Harbour - they deserved it!".

Not a lot has changed.

 

[Thermal]

You accuse me of sweeping the deaths of men and women heroically serving their country under the rug.

But you want a "civil discussion?"

Go be a deceptive, gaslighting, psycho-manipulative dickbag to someone else.

In person.

See if you get a "civil discussion" that way, either.

Oh for christ's sake, drop the hyper-personalized BS.

Not you personally. Generic 'you', or 'one', or 'we' if you prefer. The OP asks about the poor repaying the rich. My opinion is that the OP itself is sweeping the issue under the rug.

Shove all this drama. Not into it.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Oh for christ's sake, drop the hyper-personalized BS.

Not you personally. Generic 'you', or 'one', or 'we' if you prefer. The OP asks about the poor repaying the rich. My opinion is that the OP itself is sweeping the issue under the rug.

Shove all this drama. Not into it.

Accusing a specific person or the whole thread generally of tarnishing or denying the memories of dead people was quite "hyper-personalized."

I don't think anyone has denied they were killed. Or that their families should be denied justice in any way at all. We're discussing how appropriate is it to use carrots and sticks of foreign aid or sanctions relief to achieve a domestic political win (sound familiar, anyone?) regardless of who ends up paying the price for it. Recall this wasn't a ruling in a court (and not one that has true jurisdiction anyways), but a strong-armed settlement. Anyways, point being, there's lots of positions to take and lots of places to take them at along the whole length and breadth of the issue.

You dropped an emotional M-80 right into that. I find it entirely disrespectful on your part that you've essentially shoved your own words and thoughts into their supposedly still-conscious essences floating around. Did you get a release from the families to be the spokesperson for their loved ones' memories?

Now you're going to do the wringing-your-hands over how upset everyone is acting routine.

Yeah, uh, thanks for reminding us all to be more "civil."

 

[Thermal]

Accusing a specific person or the whole thread generally of tarnishing or denying the memories of dead people was quite "hyper-personalized."

I don't think anyone has denied they were killed. Or that their families should be denied justice in any way at all. We're discussing how appropriate is it to use carrots and sticks of foreign aid or sanctions relief to achieve a domestic political win (sound familiar, anyone?) regardless of who ends up paying the price for it. Recall this wasn't a ruling in a court (and not one that has true jurisdiction anyways), but a strong-armed settlement. Anyways, point being, there's lots of positions to take and lots of places to take them at along the whole length and breadth of the issue.

You dropped an emotional M-80 right into that. I find it entirely disrespectful on your part that you've essentially shoved your own words and thoughts into their supposedly still-conscious essences floating around. Did you get a release from the families to be the spokesperson for their loved ones' memories?

Now you're going to do the wringing-your-hands over how upset everyone is acting routine.

Yeah, uh, thanks for reminding us all to be more "civil."

Says the poster screeching "**** you dickbag".

Seriously, man.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Says the poster screeching "**** you dickbag".

Seriously, man.

Difference of belief between us as to whether direct, honest hostility or subversive, coy hostility is more or less offensive, I suppose.

So again, is it "civil" to suggest people discussing legalistic minutiae intertwined with the twisted terpitudes of international diplomacy and political maneuvering are somehow "sweeping the memory" of slain soldiers under the rug?

 

[Thermal]

Difference of belief between us as to whether direct, honest hostility or subversive, coy hostility is more or less offensive, I suppose.

So again, is it "civil" to suggest people discussing legalistic minutiae intertwined with the twisted terpitudes of international diplomacy and political maneuvering are somehow "sweeping the memory" of slain soldiers under the rug?

I'll cop to being somewhat crass in that phrasing. The dissection of 'minutiae' and cries to punish only the directly guilty tends to misdirect from the reason for the settlement, which gets under my skin. As I said, Sudan will likely benefit from this in short order. The symbolism is quite important, though.

If you do us the great courtesy of rereading the offending post, you might note that the tone is entirely civil. What is not civil is to act like a spoiled child and throw a fit, complete with 'In person' like some keyboard tough guy. Grow up.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I'll admit I've learned, after a decent while since last having it thrown at me, what my gut response to the idea that questioning the way my country is going about something means I'm betraying my kind or if we are really punishing the right people after some person got killed means I'm diminishing them.

Thank you for revealing to me I should have a better plan for that. I will try to grow up in that way.

But doing that to someone isn't okay. Please try to grow up in that way.

 

[3point14]

How much has the US paid out in similar cases?

 

[lionking]

How much has the US paid out in similar cases?

The US paid out a lot to repair Vietnam. Not the same, I agree.

 

[rockysmith76]

Why should a USA Court be able to convict a foreign country?

"MURICA!!!"

 

[3point14]

The US paid out a lot to repair Vietnam. Not the same, I agree.

I'm pretty sure US (and UK and French etc.) arms sales, both legitimate and illegitimate, have led to the death and dismemberment of many civilians as well as servicemen.

Where's their cheque?