The poor giving to the rich.

[Planigale]

This is something I find very uncomfortable and I wondered what others thought.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-51487712
Sudan is to pay $30,000,000 dollars to the families of 17 persons killed in the attack on the USS Cole. The bombing was carried out by Yemenis in Yemen, and masterminded by a Saudi, on behalf of al-Qaeda in 2000. Sudan had expelled al-Qaeda and OBL in 1996. The government of Sudan has changed since then and those in power are not those in power in 2000. The responsibility of Sudan and in particular the Sudanese people for the bombing seems distant particularly in comparison with some countries who would appear to have a far more direct connection with the events e.g. Yemen.

Sudan is the poorest country in the world by mean wealth per adult ($534), and the US the third wealthiest ($432,365).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
My guess is the families of those persons killed are wealthy by Sudanese standards, and getting an additional $1 million would make them fabulously rich. My guess is that the families of these US servicemen / women get a variety of veterans benefits. Whilst the money that the Sudanese government will pay will mean less for education health care etc.

US government revenue is $6 million million (trillion), Sudan's $ 8 thousand million (billion). So this is equivalent to the US having to pay compensation of $ 30 billion. In comparison the US paid $62 million in compensation for the 290 deaths when the US Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 an act for which the US government is clearly more directly culpable than Sudan is for the attack on the USS Cole.

I am uncomfortable about the poorest people in the world having to give what for them is a large amount of money to 'wealthy' people for something which was not their fault. If there were Sudanese people responsible they are not in power and will not be punished by this. this is the sort of collective punishment which most people and international law suggests is wrong.

 

[Thermal]

Yes, but a nation is like an incorporated entity, whose responsibilities extend beyond its current members. Kind of like the reparations argument re US slavery.

Should the poor be let off the hook for their crimes just because they are broke? If they owe, they owe.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Yes, but a nation is like an incorporated entity, whose responsibilities extend beyond its current members. Kind of like the reparations argument re US slavery.

Should the poor be let off the hook for their crimes just because they are broke? If they owe, they owe.

What crimes?

 

[Thermal]

What crimes?

Criminal negligence?

 

[The Atheist]

Sudan is to pay $30,000,000 dollars to the families of 17 persons killed in the attack on the USS Cole.

That is truly hilarious.

Milton Friedman will be smiling in his grave.

Should the poor be let off the hook for their crimes just because they are broke?

Already happens. When did you last see a bank robber ordered to replay the money they stole?

 

[lionking]

That is truly hilarious.

Milton Friedman will be smiling in his grave.

And yet this forum will (has already) throw up people who think the most ridiculous and punitive actions are quite okay. Possibly because the US can do no wrong? Don’t know, but the ability of some here to defend the indefensible is truely amazing.

 

[Bob001]

.....
I am uncomfortable about the poorest people in the world having to give what for them is a large amount of money to 'wealthy' people for something which was not their fault. If there were Sudanese people responsible they are not in power and will not be punished by this. this is the sort of collective punishment which most people and international law suggests is wrong.

The story notes that in exchange for the payment, the U.S. will consider the matter closed and will lift economic sanctions.

This is a key condition set by the US for Sudan to be removed from its list of state sponsors of terrorism.

The US ruled Sudan was responsible for the attack as the two suicide bombers involved were trained in the country.
Removal from the US blacklist would allow sanctions to be lifted, a major objective of Sudan's new government.

Sounds like a small price to pay for the possibilty of future prosperity. The responsibilties and obligations of a nation survive any particular leaders.

 

[Bob001]

....
Already happens. When did you last see a bank robber ordered to replay the money they stole?

Restitution is often a condition of sentencing, particularly for white-collar crimes. If a bank robber was caught with the money authorities would just take it from him. And of course, unlike a nation, a bank robber can be locked up for decades.

 

[Planigale]

The story notes that in exchange for the payment, the U.S. will consider the matter closed and will lift economic sanctions.


Sounds like a small price to pay for the possibilty of future prosperity. The responsibilties and obligations of a nation survive any particular leaders.

Yes I understand the incentive and why they have agreed. The sanctions in themselves would have been a punishment, this seems to be more when the bully says I'll stop hitting you if you hand over your pocket money. The when you say they stole it they say no you gave it over voluntarily in exchange for not being hit. (Yes I still remember my school days!)

Given there has been a complete regime change, I'm not certain how the US justifies the sanctions continuing anyway, their function has been fulfilled. What sort of lesson is it for e.g. Iran, even if there is a regime change we won't lift sanctions.

 

[Planigale]

Restitution is often a condition of sentencing, particularly for white-collar crimes. If a bank robber was caught with the money authorities would just take it from him. And of course, unlike a nation, a bank robber can be locked up for decades.

Effectively sanctions are the locking up.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Criminal negligence?

Sure.

In the same way I am criminally negligent for every crime the police department with jurisdiction in my area did not stop.

I'm all for restitution. I'm not for broad restitution against "poor people" for "their crimes" when all they did was live somewhere in vague regional proximity to a very tragic event.

Did a government minister secretly support this operation? Did an agency "look the other way" somewhere because of a bribe or threat?

Grill the asses of the human beings who did those things.

Same with corporations. I get the need for "liability shield" when it comes to disasters and calamities. But fully-intentional criminal acts turning into punitive fines that ultimately hurt citizens, consumers, retirees who's shares are their fortune while the human persons who did it and benefited from it walk free? Screw all that.

 

[Bob001]

.....
Given there has been a complete regime change, I'm not certain how the US justifies the sanctions continuing anyway, their function has been fulfilled. What sort of lesson is it for e.g. Iran, even if there is a regime change we won't lift sanctions.

Survivors of the victims won a $315 million judgment against Sudan that was thrown out on technical grounds. Sudan is paying much less than it could have been compelled to pay. The U.S. is protecting the interests of its citizens, not collecting the money for itself. A nation exists separately from its government. A dead person's estate still owes his debts and can still be sued.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Survivors of the victims won a $315 million judgment against Sudan that was thrown out on technical grounds. Sudan is paying much less than it could have been compelled to pay. The U.S. is protecting the interests of its citizens, not collecting the money for itself. A nation exists separately from its government. A dead person's estate still owes his debts and can still be sued.

...and every single person living in Sudan is likened unto this dead person in the analogy...because...?

Keep going, finish the whole thought.

This course of action only makes sense as a "it's what we have" if you have basically surrendered any expectation that individuals who are actually responsible for something will never be held accountable for it.

But even then, I don't see how "we're not going to punish those who are actually guilty, therefore the ideal course of action remaining is to pilfer the pockets of several million people for a few pennies each" really seems appealing.

ETA: curious if anyone sued the Navy for their culpability in operating out of a port and country with poor operational security. That's "negligent" too, isn't it?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And yet this forum will (has already) throw up people who think the most ridiculous and punitive actions are quite okay. Possibly because the US can do no wrong? Don’t know, but the ability of some here to defend the indefensible is truely amazing.

Possibly that is not the only reason to take a step back here.

Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden lived in Sudan for five years in the 1990s as a guest of Mr Bashir's government. Sudan was added to the US terrorism list in 1993.

The families of those killed in the USS Cole say Sudan gave al-Qaeda and Bin Laden financial and technical support. They say this allowed the group to establish training bases, run businesses and even use Sudanese diplomatic passports to carry explosives....

That's while OBL was planning 9-11.

"It entered into this settlement out of [its] determination to settle the historical allegations of terrorism left over by the former regime, and only for the purpose of fulfilling the conditions set by the US administration to remove Sudan from the list of state sponsors of terrorism in order to normalise relations with the US and the rest of the world."

Where is the money actually coming from?
Reuters April 2019: Saudi Arabia, UAE to send $3 billion in aid to Sudan

Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates said on Sunday they had agreed to send Sudan $3 billion worth of aid, throwing a lifeline to the country’s new military leaders after protests led to the ousting of president Omar al-Bashir.

The two Gulf Arab countries will deposit $500 million with the Sudanese central bank and send the rest in the form of food, medicine and petroleum products, their state news agencies said in parallel statements.

The country has a history of some serious terrorism, they have a new president. I'm not going to cry tears over a country getting back on its feet that has to settle some old debts. They have a new president, its not a new country.

These are the people that supported or participated in genocide in Darfur:

The “Darfur Genocide” refers to the current mass slaughter and rape of Darfuri men, women, and children in Western Sudan. The killings began in 2003, as the first genocide in the 21st century.[1] Unrest and violence persist today.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

"Those people" over there did this. "Those people" also do lots of other nasty stuff. Other "those people" are giving "those people" aid and so naturally that means they are covering for each other.

There is no reason to feel sorry for "those people."

Seems to be all it takes for us to feel smugly satisfied with our decisions and not concern ourselves with the consequences.

 

[The Atheist]

"Those people" over there did this.

I'm always reminded of a scene from The Wild Bunch, where the old guy asks the question:

"Who the hell is 'they'?"

It's always them, never us, or more specifically, never US.

 

[lionking]

Possibly that is not the only reason to take a step back here.

That's while OBL was planning 9-11.



Where is the money actually coming from?
Reuters April 2019: Saudi Arabia, UAE to send $3 billion in aid to Sudan

The country has a history of some serious terrorism, they have a new president. I'm not going to cry tears over a country getting back on its feet that has to settle some old debts. They have a new president, its not a new country.

These are the people that supported or participated in genocide in Darfur:

The “Darfur Genocide” refers to the current mass slaughter and rape of Darfuri men, women, and children in Western Sudan. The killings began in 2003, as the first genocide in the 21st century.[1] Unrest and violence persist today.

The Treaty of Versailles sure did a good job punishing those evil, pesky Germans into submission.......

Punitive reparations almost never, if ever, work. They punish the poorest people of the nation concerned, those who played no part in the original war crimes.

Take the culprits to The Hague, leave the impoverished alone.

So no backing away from me.

 

[The Atheist]

The Treaty of Versailles sure did a good job punishing those evil, pesky Germans into submission.......

Nice analogy, and it turned out so well.

You'd think Americans would want to make fewer enemies, but I guess with the withdrawal from A'stan, they need a few more.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Nice analogy, and it turned out so well.

You'd think Americans would want to make fewer enemies, but I guess with the withdrawal from A'stan, they need a few more.

Hey wait, speaking of Afghanistan, didn't that country harbor 9/11 conspirators?

I mean I know they have a new government now, but wow.

Anyone supporting those ******* with foreign aid and support is culpable for what they did.

I'll let myself out now.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Take the culprits to The Hague, leave the impoverished alone.

So no backing away from me.

What makes you believe any of that money was ever destined to help "the impoverished".

You all are equating the money with some sort of funds that come from or would otherwise end up benefitting the people in the country.

Actually, lifting the sanctions will almost certainly do more for the impoverished citizens of Sudan because that source of money actually does improve citizens lives.


Why did no one care about the sanctions before now?

Anyone care about Darfur when George Clooney was trying to get attention to stop the mass rapes and genocide?