The palestinian state we all want.

[Darat]

Well Darat,

The way I see it there has been, and continues to be, official sanction from the PA for terrorism. I know Abbas has made moderate noises and has pledged to do what he can to stop these attacks....and yet the words of the charter loom over him.

How can he mean what he says,...how can he possess power to curtail terrorism if he either has not the will or the power to change the charter itself?

I fully understand that the PA will have a very serious debate on their hands in getting the leadership there to come together and rewrite the charter; but it would be an interesting debate to watch. If the PA fails and Hamas et al argue successfully to have the charter stand then we know we're dealing with an Abbas government that may mean well, but does not really represent the will of the people.

At that point the PA could hold a referendum and perhaps the PA will end up being led by the Hamas faction. That's okay too...it's democracy. If the Palestinians truly believe that they must destroy Israel then at least the Israelis could get on with fighting a hot war with an enemy they can clearly identify...ie; the Palestinian people.

But if perhaps there is a chance Abbas could win the day; get the incitement out of their founding document; they could then get the incitement off the airwaves and out of the schools without appearing to be hypocritical.

I have no idea whether or not such a re-write would have any real short or long term impact on the rate of terrorism. But it looks like a perfectly do-able action which would overtly show the world that the Palestinian leaders are acting in good faith and really trying to do the right thing even if they are too weak to do much else.

You've put that very well and I agree with all it (apart from the "hot war" - I don’t think that necessarily follows, as an example of why I disagree I’d use the situation between North and South Korea - cold wars can last a long time without them ever becoming "hot wars").

I don't see the harm in them beginning the debate process. At the l,east when all is said and done the Israeli's would know a little better where they stand with the Palestinian people. (as if they haven't gotten the clue already that is)

-z

This is really our major point of difference; I can see that there could be harm in that it might increase the risk for Israel, without securing any benefit for Israel in the horst term. At the moment I believe this is the also the policy of the Israeli government (as evidenced by their withdrawal from Gazza, without any prior conditions).

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Hi guys...just checking in on the thread. Are we all still very much in favour of a palestinians state? well,. at least as much as its possible to be in favour of something you don't want to see happen?

It's handy how you just tell all your opponents what they think. I guess that saves a lot of trouble in figuring out how to respond to what they actually say?

Can you list the people who don't want to see a Palestinian state happening, or is this just addressed to air?

Originally posted by The Fool
A question I have for those that still have conditions....who judges when your conditions are met? For example....no longer wanting to "wipe out" israel. If I choose to believe this is still the case is there anything any palestinian can possibly do to change my mind? Who is going to proclaim that the conditions are met?

I don't think it takes any special ability to judge what's being preached in PA funded religious broadcasts, what's being printed in school textbooks, what's being done about the glorification of martyrs, if schools, hospitals, and streets are still being named after suicide-bombrs, and what's in the charters of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.

See, nobody is asking that the opinions of every last person be changed, that can't be done, but something can be done about all these very public, very obvious, and very hateful outward manifestations of the promotion of this ideology.

Originally posted by The Fool
Basically all the people here who want to place unmeasurable unfulfillable conditions may like to explain how these conditions are not, effectively, a simple no...

There is nothing unmeasurable about the contents of the Palestinian Authority charter or the Hamas charter. Either they call for the destruction of Israel, or they don't. RIght now they do.

There is nothing unmeasurable about the content of PA funded religious broadcasts. Either they teach hatred of Jews, or they don't.

These are neither unmeasurable nor unfulfillable, and claiming they are is disengenuous at best.

Originally posted by The Fool
after all, I have been assured we all want a Palestinian state...don't we???

And we have your assurance you want peace. You just can't bring yourself to say openly that the guys firing rockets at Israeli citizens should change their behavior in any way to accomplish that.

 

[The Fool]

It's handy how you just tell all your opponents what they think. I guess that saves a lot of trouble in figuring out how to respond to what they actually say?

Can you list the people who don't want to see a Palestinian state happening, or is this just addressed to air?

start with all the ones that want to set pre-conditions that are unmeasurable and therefore simply hot air, a No without having to stick your neck out and say no.......add in the one that says he has no conditions while constantly talking about conditions....that would be you.



I don't think it takes any special ability to judge what's being preached in PA funded religious broadcasts, what's being printed in school textbooks, what's being done about the glorification of martyrs, if schools, hospitals, and streets are still being named after suicide-bombrs, and what's in the charters of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.

See, nobody is asking that the opinions of every last person be changed, that can't be done, but something can be done about all these very public, very obvious, and very hateful outward manifestations of the promotion of this ideology.

not anywhere close to an answer....you may wish to claim its easy to judge if you like....I asked you who will judge it and what will be a pass. any thoughts? Or is it important that it remain nebulous?



There is nothing unmeasurable about the contents of the Palestinian Authority charter or the Hamas charter. Either they call for the destruction of Israel, or they don't. RIght now they do.

There is nothing unmeasurable about the content of PA funded religious broadcasts. Either they teach hatred of Jews, or they don't.

These are neither unmeasurable nor unfulfillable, and claiming they are is disengenuous at best.

OK, what should they do with the charter?....repeal the offending sections? (already done that) Maybe get Abbass to draw black felt pen lines through them on national TV....burn a few copies? I bet you one australian dollar they would still be posted on websites claiming that the Palestinians still "really do" believe them..with the amendments and supplementary documents nowhere to be seen (as usual). Come on mycroft what is the condition that you don't have....what would actually have have to happen with the charter for you to support a palestinian state (hang on....you already say you do...this is so confusing)

And we have your assurance you want peace. You just can't bring yourself to say openly that the guys firing rockets at Israeli citizens should change their behavior in any way to accomplish that.
I would consider calling this uninformed but because you have been corrected so many times it can only really be a lie. The guys that fire the rockets are criminals Mycroft...how many times do you have to hear that for it to finally break through? Do you have to suggest that I support terrorism that often? Maybe you could get by with just one a week?

bye the way....we are discussing Palestinian statehood....try and stay on topic.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
start with all the ones that want to set pre-conditions that are unmeasurable and therefore simply hot air, a No without having to stick your neck out and say no.......add in the one that says he has no conditions while constantly talking about conditions....that would be you.

I'll say it again...What's so unmeasurable about your national charter? Either it calls for the destruction of Israel, or it doesn't.

What's so unmeasurable about the number of terrorists arrested and convicted by the Palestinian Authority? Last year it was ZERO. Do you think they can do better next year? That seems pretty measurable to me.

What's unmeasurable about the number of PA funded sermons that call for death to Jews? There are only 52 Fridays in a year, if 36 of them preach hatred, maybe next year we can aim for 25. Then we can aim for 18 the year after that. Heck, give them a whopping 5 years to make it zero, we don't want them to go into withdrawal, do we?

If you can see it, you can measure it. You're just making excuses in saying you can't. ”Oh, we can't expect anything at all from the Palestinians. After all, if we do think of something, then we have to figure out how to measure it, and nobody is that smart!”

Originally posted by The Fool
not anywhere close to an answer....you may wish to claim its easy to judge if you like....I asked you who will judge it and what will be a pass. any thoughts? Or is it important that it remain nebulous?

Who cares? This is a problem you're making up!! Nobody claims this is an issue but you.

Hey, I gotta question for you; How do you think they're gonna “measure” the withdrawal from Gaza? Who's going to “judge” if those Jews are actually removed? You gonna take the word of all those pictures on CNN? Or do you need some guy from Switzerland to actually count them as they leave? Does this sound like a dumb question to you too? Well, me too! Just like your question!

Do you think a bunch of diplomats from Israel, the Palestinians, the United Nations, the United States, and the Arab League can figure something out? I do. A lot of those guys went do college, did you know that? Some of them are pretty smart!

Pull some volunteers from some neutral countries and make a commission. That's one idea. Grab some Israelis and Palestinians that are trusted by the other side, that's another idea. Hey, there's gotta be some, right? Let the UN do it, that's a third idea. Let the US do it, that's a fourth idea. Do you need more ways it could be done? Ask the Vatican for help, they'd love that!

Hey, I just had a thought; maybe nobody expressed any thoughts on this because nobody but you thinks it's a real problem!

Originally posted by The Fool
OK, what should they do with the charter?....

How about re-writing it? Is that too much to ask? It's not that long, someone smart could work something up in a few hours. Give them a month or so to quibble over the details and vote on it.

Oh, can we ask them to do that much?! I forget, if you get them to say they're gonna stop trying to kill Jews, someday someone might actually expect them to stop killing Jews! We can't have that, can we?!

Originally posted by The Fool
repeal the offending sections? (already done that)

Oh they did? When was that? That's such a reliefe, can you show me the new document?

Oops! No, you're wrong. They promised to, but never got around to it. Arafat sent a letter to Clinton saying he would do it, but he never did do it.

Hey, I got a secret! That was typical of Arafat! He made a lot of promises he never kept!

Originally posted by The Fool
I would consider calling this uninformed but because you have been corrected so many times it can only really be a lie. The guys that fire the rockets are criminals Mycroft...how many times do you have to hear that for it to finally break through? Do you have to suggest that I support terrorism that often? Maybe you could get by with just one a week?

It's just that whenever someone suggests the Palestinians actually arrest these criminals, up pops the Fool claiming we can't expect them to do that. They're national heros, you know. That would be auto-oppression. Can police stop crime in New Yourk City? Well, why should we ever expect the Palestinians to arrest anyone who fires a rocket at a Jew? No no no no, Palestinians firing rockets at Jews is just a fact of life we have to learn to live with. Sure, they're criminals, but other than that they're okay.

 

[The Fool]

It's just that whenever someone suggests the Palestinians actually arrest these criminals, up pops the Fool claiming we can't expect them to do that. They're national heros, you know. That would be auto-oppression. Can police stop crime in New Yourk City? Well, why should we ever expect the Palestinians to arrest anyone who fires a rocket at a Jew? No no no no, Palestinians firing rockets at Jews is just a fact of life we have to learn to live with. Sure, they're criminals, but other than that they're okay.

A long sequence of misrepresentations and fabrications of things I am supposed to have said that you can never quote...just "summarise". Plus yet another slur that I support criminals.....what happened to the topic again?

not long to go now.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
A long sequence of misrepresentations and fabrications of things I am supposed to have said that you can never quote...just "summarise". Plus yet another slur that I support criminals.....what happened to the topic again?

not long to go now.

The irony here is this whole thread is one big misrepresentation where you claim that people who support the creation of a Palestinian state actually don't.

Whatever.

Until you can answer my questions on why the easily measured is somehow hard to measure or how finding someone to judge progress from the Palestinians is somehow mysteriously impossible, I think we're done. Let me know when you're willing to argue what I say instead of what you claim I say, there is quite a difference.

Originally posted by The Fool
not long to go now.

Baiting ignored.

 

[kimiko]

The AWOL soldier who perpetrated the previous incident did so before this current week's beginning of the "disengagement" (why is that in quotes? Isn't it actually a disengagement by definition?) -- in fact, he was not even a settler but an Israeli resident of Rishon Le'Tzion, where his family lived.

Isn't a settler someone who lives in a settlement?

The military said Natan-Zada had slipped away from his army base in May, leaving behind a letter citing his opposition to the Gaza pullout. Since then, he had been living at the West Bank settlement of Tapuah, a stronghold of militant ideologues who believe that the West Bank and Gaza were given to the Jewish people by God.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/nation/0508/07/natio-271355.htm (A link Demon already posted.)

The bolded part of this next quote is the question of the interviewer. The answer is from his parents.

And when you noticed that he was becoming more extremist, moving to Tapuah, how hard did you try to stop him? "First of all, he became religious. I didn't stop him. A lot of people go back to religion. That was his choice. Beyond that, I don't know a single thing about what happened. We told him he could come home, he could keep the Sabbath here as well, but he said that he was religious and we weren't, and he preferred to stay there [Tapuah]. "

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...le/ShowFull&cid=1123381240200&p=1078027574097

There is a picture of him on this page.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1123294991450

 

[The Fool]

Let me know when you're willing to argue what I say instead of what you claim I say, there is quite a difference.

you say you are in favoor of a palestinian state. You are unable to describe under what circumstances it should be allowed to happen or who should make the decision....you have offered some suggestions of the sort of things that should happen but are unable to quantify how much is enough to allow a palestinian state. Your position is that you support a Palestinian state at some undetermined time in the future when some undetermined goals are achieved. This also has a large overlap with the position of no state...ever.......


yes you can have your nation....someday, if you behave better.....I'll let you know what "behave better" means too....someday.....what have I got wrong?

 

[Darat]

Mycroft & The Fool, whilst heated exchanges are tolerated on this forum given your past history towards one another and the subsequent suspensions that were a direct result of you both being unable to control yourselves, this is a final warning. Either behave towards each other in such a manner that does not breach your Membership Agreement or face either a banning or a suspension for a minimum of 1 month and your Membership re-instated under a strict probationary period.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[demon]

Mycroft:
"Until you can answer my questions on why the easily measured is somehow hard to measure..."

A bit keen on this measuring thing now aren`t we Mycroft?
You got around to measuring how big Israel should be yet? It`s final boarders? Seems it might be of interest to those talking about a future Palestinian state...if there`s anything left to be a Palestinian state that is.

 

[Mycroft]

yes you can have your nation....someday, if you behave better.....I'll let you know what "behave better" means too....someday.....what have I got wrong?

As I said, you may get back to me when you wish to respond to the words I say, and not your version of them. There is quite a difference.

Darat, I trust this was mild enough?

 

[Darat]

As I said, you may get back to me when you wish to respond to the words I say, and not your version of them. There is quite a difference.

Darat, I trust this was mild enough?

Please use the "Forum Management" section for discussions of forum moderation and management.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[rikzilla]

Mycroft & The Fool, whilst heated exchanges are tolerated on this forum given your past history towards one another and the subsequent suspensions that were a direct result of you both being unable to control yourselves, this is a final warning. Either behave towards each other in such a manner that does not breach your Membership Agreement or face either a banning or a suspension for a minimum of 1 month and your Membership re-instated under a strict probationary period.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

ty·rant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trnt)
n.

• An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions.
• A ruler who exercises power in a harsh, cruel manner.
• An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person.

"Take it to forum management"...yeah I know...and I did. You've about killed the discussion in this thread anyway.

-z

 

[zenith-nadir]

Palestinian Groups Jostle for Gaza Control - Aug 22, 2005 - (ABC)

RAFAH, Gaza Strip — In a military training camp run by the ruling Fatah movement, hundreds of young Palestinians marched in formation Monday and sprinted across a sandy lot.

Nearby, hundreds of Islamic Jihad gunmen in black ski masks paraded in the streets, some riding in jeeps, raising AK-47 assault rifles and posing with rocket launchers.

Yet a third militant group, Hamas, boasted on its Web site that it has killed more Israelis in more Gaza attacks than any of its rivals and that it alone deserves credit for Israel's historic pullout from the Mediterranean strip.

On Monday, Islamic Jihad and Hamas members in uniforms staged marches in Rafah in southern Gaza and in Nablus in the West Bank, burning cardboard models of Israeli settlements and tanks as crowds cheered.

"This huge military presence among people in Gaza will lead to more chaos, will weaken the Palestinian Authority and will create more violence in society," said Talal Okal, a political analyst in Gaza. "Fatah is losing control and Hamas is rising up."

 

[webfusion]

Not all the protestors are settlers

Kimiko asks: :

"Isn't a settler someone who lives in a settlement?"

Nope. In Israel, there are right now, hundreds of people who are not settlers (normal residents) that infiltrated the West Bank (and Gaza, although they were evicted already) for the express purpose of confronting the IDF.

Read the news reports. It will clear things up for you.

• Defense officials have intelligence suggesting that extreme right-wing activists have infiltrated the settlements and are planning to hole themselves up in various locations in the two places. Some of the activists have apparently stockpiled Molotov cocktails and perhaps even hand grenades. Senior officers believe that opposition will be much fiercer than the scenes at Kfar Darom last week. One of the places that extremists could try to entrench themselves is in the fortress at Sa-Nur. The IDF has already decided that if this happens, the police's special missions unit will be charged with overcoming and evacuating those barricaded inside.

===================================

These young men and women are not part of the towns and villages slated for evacuation; they are Israelis who just recently decided to get "in the face" of the security forces, and managed to find their way to the settlements.
Their identity cards do not show their addresses as being "settlers" officially. They are just squatters and provocateurs, if you will.
That was the status of Natan-Zada. He was a deserter, and a seditionist.

 

[kimiko]

Their identity cards do not show their addresses as being "settlers" officially. They are just squatters and provocateurs, if you will.
That was the status of Natan-Zada. He was a deserter, and a seditionist.

Did you read the article with the interview with his parents? It sounded like he had moved to Tapuah. How long does an official change to one's identity card take? Here, you have to have a new driver's license issued when you move, but it isn't always done immediately. That one's driver's license has an old address doens't mean that one's new address isn't the actual residence. Is it similar with Israeli ID?

Did he say any sort of goodbye? No. Not at all. On Tuesday before it happened, he spoke with my wife. He was happy, he was at peace. He invited us to spend Shabbat with him at Tapuah. We never got to spend Shabbat with him. He never talked about attacking anyone. He just wanted to make a life in Tapuah. He asked me for money to buy a herd. He wanted to live as a shepherd in peace and quiet in Tapuah. What happened—I have no idea.

 

[webfusion]

10 days

you have to make an appearance at the population registry offices within 10 days in Israel for change of address; all adults must carry a national identity card on them, always.

Natan-Zada was AWOL, so obviously he wasn't about to show up at the Ministry of Interior, which had his name in the computer as a wanted man! So, he vanished by "moving" to the territories as a way of escaping justice for deserting (he was crashing at the pads of fellow subversives).
He was no more a settler in the sense of the word (owning a home, maintaining an ongoing connection with a community) than any of the other hundreds of wack-jobs who are now itching for a fight with the IDF as the troops clear out settlements by decree of law.

• Israel Radio reported this morning from the scene at Sa-Nur that dozens of youths were throwing garbage and bottles at the soldiers, shouting slogans against the evacuation.
  
  Thousands of soldiers were ready to storm Sa-Nur and Homesh in the northern West Bank at dawn, with orders to remove the few remaining settlers along with a crowd of "reinforcements," (many of them youths known for extremism and rejection of the government's authority).

These young men are trouble, with a capital 'T', and they will be seen and heard from in the future, rampaging and doing their dastardly deeds, dragging Israel through the mud as they commit their acts of violence and terror, just like the insurrectionist Natan-Zada.

 

[webfusion]

still in Gaza

ETA --- (sorry this is a new post, it should be an edit to the previous one)

Reports from Gaza: August 23rd, 2005

• Despite the official end of the Israeli civilian presence in Gaza, a senior settler figure said Monday night that there are at least 150 youths still living in Gush Katif after having evaded the evacuating forces for the past eight days.
  
  The largest concentration of these youths, the vast majority of whom are not residents of Gush Katif, is thought to be in greenhouses of Gadid, near Atzmona and in Neveh Dekalim. Last Friday, after the evacuation of Gush Katif and neighboring settlements was completed, all of those who remained behind held a special Shabbat dinner. According to those present, some 300 to 400 people attended. While some of those who attended are in Gaza on official business - ambulance drivers and local council security officers - the majority were youth who managed to enter the Strip illegally and remained in the settlements after the soldiers left.

OK, kimiko, are you gettting the picture?
Not settlers.
Infiltrators and subversives.

Let's move on, shall we?

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Words form and shape the will.

So when you make claims and refuse to define your own words what then?

 

[demon]

The Fool:
"bye the way....we are discussing Palestinian statehood....try and stay on topic."


Well, everyone seems het up about the Palestinian Charter, but what about the commitment to the destruction of the Palestinians? That seems pretty relevant to me in discussing a future Palestinian state but none of our resident "Greater Israel" apologists seem to want to go there.


Let`s take a look:

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya [Jewish immigration], and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.


"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

Ariel Sharon, then Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, quoted AFP, November 15, 1998.

"[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

Oh, and that chap Theodore Herzl (take note webfusion):

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

There are many, many more.
Should the Palestinians let these get in the way of finding peace with Israel?