The Only Thing We Have To Fear Is Fear Itself...

[WildCat]

...and an irreversible economic collapse:

And if nothing is done, this recession might linger for years. Our economy will lose 5 million more jobs. Unemployment will approach double digits. Our nation will sink deeper into a crisis that, at some point, we may not be able to reverse.

Wasn't this supposed to be about hope and change, rather than pushing through the biggest pork-barrel budget in the nation's history through fearmongering and creating divisions?

 

[Upchurch]

Wasn't this supposed to be about hope and change,

Still is. Obama was handed a gigantic mess to untangle and he's working on it.

rather than pushing through the biggest pork-barrel budget in the nation's history

Which budget is that? Are you referring to the stimulus bill?

through fearmongering and creating divisions?

Fearmongering is telling voters their children will die in terrorist attacks if they vote for your opponent. Pointing out that the economy is in real trouble, not so much.

 

[WildCat]

Still is. Obama was handed a gigantic mess to untangle and he's working on it.

How does that column work toward that end?

Which budget is that?

The one for School District 117 in Illinois...

Are you referring to the stimulus bill?

I see you're a big fan of euphemisms. Put all the lipstick you want on it, it is nothing but pork and will accomplish nothing but nicer offices for government employees and tenporary jobs for the one segment of the construction industry that isn't hurting - politically connected road construction contractors.

Fearmongering is telling voters their children will die in terrorist attacks if they vote for your opponent. Pointing out that the economy is in real trouble, not so much.

Fearmongering is predicting gloom and doom if you don't do this right now, before it's too late!

There is no evidence at all that this bill will do anything for the economy.

 

[Ziggurat]

Fearmongering is telling voters their children will die in terrorist attacks if they vote for your opponent. Pointing out that the economy is in real trouble, not so much.

But he's doing more than that, which is the point. He's making a claim that w're at risk of irreversible economic collapse unless we do what he wants. That would mean worse than the great depression (which was reversible). You honestly think that's not fearmongering? You honestly think he has any basis on which to make such a drastic claim?

 

[JihadJane]

It's not fear-mongering. It's a gentle introduction to reality.

 

[WildCat]

It's not fear-mongering. It's a gentle introduction to reality.

If JihadJane thinks this is reality, my point is proven.

 

[Upchurch]

Well then, let's just do nothing then. I'm sure it will be just fine.

 

[dudalb]

As usual, I am in the middle. A stimulus bill is needed, but I question a lot of the individual projects.

 

[Ziggurat]

A stimulus bill is needed

Why? I keep hearing people say this, but I don't hear explanations. Calamity is supposed to follow if no stimulus bill passes, but that's not an explanation.

The CBO apparently thinks that this stimulus bill is worse than doing nothing. I have yet to be convinced that doing nothing is not an option. It may be politically risky, but I could give a **** about that.

 

[BPSCG]

This plan is more than a prescription for short-term spending -- it's a strategy for America's long-term growth and opportunity in areas such as renewable energy, health care and education.

Wait a minute.

If this is supposed to be a stimulus bill, hastily slapped together crafted to deal with an emergency situation, then take out the parts of it that don't deal with the emergency.

What parts are those? The president has it right there. They are the parts of the bill that are part of "a strategy for America's long-term growth and opportunity in areas such as renewable energy, health care and education."

Separate the emergency measures from the bill, and put them up for a vote. I'll bet you get a lot of Republican support if you do that.

The rest - renewable energy, health care, education - aren't emergency issues. Our power grid is not going to collapse tonight, our hospitals aren't going to close by the hundreds in the next few weeks, and I haven't heard of wholesale closings of schools all over the country, whatever their troubles.

So separate out the true emergency measures, and have an open, honest, and, to use one of the president's favorite words, transparent debate on what we want to do about the rest of our issues. They might be urgent, but they in no way constitute an emergency. The president and his party lose all credibility by trying to claim otherwise.

 

[joobz]

Why? I keep hearing people say this, but I don't hear explanations. Calamity is supposed to follow if no stimulus bill passes, but that's not an explanation.

The CBO apparently thinks that this stimulus bill is worse than doing nothing. I have yet to be convinced that doing nothing is not an option. It may be politically risky, but I could give a **** about that.

It seems they agree the bill will do what the bill is said to do.

The agency projected the Senate bill would produce between 1.4 percent and 4.1 percent higher growth in 2009 than if there was no action. For 2010, the plan would boost growth by 1.2 percent to 3.6 percent.

They only complain that the cost may be too great in 2019. This may be true or may not. It all depends on how the economy is a few years from now.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

How does this usually work in the United States? Are these kinds of bills devised by the current Administration, then put before Congress, then Senate, then the President? Or is it the same as Obama's 'Google For Government' Bill, which is devised by a few Senators and then signed by the current President (If passed)?

Regardless, I vote 'Pork-barrel' as the most annoying phrase of 2008 (and, as far as it has gone, 09). Just call it nonsense.

ETA:

Now is the time...

Now is the time...

Now is the time...

And now is the time..

Subconsciously evoking King?

 

[Ziggurat]

It seems they agree the bill will do what the bill is said to do.

It's not hard to provide a short term stimulus if you just spend money like crazy. That doesn't make it a good idea, let alone necessary.

 

[joobz]

It's not hard to provide a short term stimulus if you just spend money like crazy. That doesn't make it a good idea, let alone necessary.

But that doesn't make it a bad idea either. I can't see how a 9% unemployment rate coupled with a tax cut is a better solution.

 

[JihadJane]

If JihadJane thinks this is reality, my point is proven.

I said it was an introduction to reality.

Expect worse!

 

[Ziggurat]

But that doesn't make it a bad idea either.

The enormous cost and the wastefulness of the spending make it a bad idea.

Hell, even in the near term it will cause problems. You know how it's the housing crisis which tipped the boat? Well, what do you think all this massive borrowing is going to do? It will drive up interest rates. Yes, the debt won't need to be paid off for a long time, but it will need to be sold now. Higher interest rates will in turn drive down house prices. So for people having trouble with their mortgage, well, you're screwed. You won't be able to refinance, and you won't be able to sell without taking a hit.

Look, there's now way around experiencing economic pain. But this sort of massive stimulus package doesn't actually solve any of the underlying economic problems (for that we need companies to actually fail so that the losers get out of the game). All it does is attempt to kick the problem down the road. That doesn't help anyone but politicians.

 

[Ziggurat]

Stimulis: Because all economies have performance issues

 

[joobz]

The enormous cost and the wastefulness of the spending make it a bad idea.

Where's the wastefulness? There's investments into research, design, infrastructure, all of which will help develop new products to sell on a world stage.

Hell, even in the near term it will cause problems. You know how it's the housing crisis which tipped the boat? Well, what do you think all this massive borrowing is going to do? It will drive up interest rates. Yes, the debt won't need to be paid off for a long time, but it will need to be sold now. Higher interest rates will in turn drive down house prices. So for people having trouble with their mortgage, well, you're screwed. You won't be able to refinance, and you won't be able to sell without taking a hit.

Yup. that's the down side. But the idea is that if we can get our economy to start growing again now, we'll be better able to deal with the costs downterm.

Look, there's now way around experiencing economic pain. But this sort of massive stimulus package doesn't actually solve any of the underlying economic problems (for that we need companies to actually fail so that the losers get out of the game). All it does is attempt to kick the problem down the road. That doesn't help anyone but politicians.

Nice theory, completely rooted in an equal amount of assumptions as any other economic theory. Allowing multiple major entities in the country go under could be good. I can't see what could go wrong with >10% unemployment, deflation, lower tax revenue to invest into infrastructure, reduced borrowing power, reduced strength in world economy, reduced military strength due to a reduced tax revenue.....

 

[Ziggurat]

Where's the wastefulness? There's investments into research, design, infrastructure, all of which will help develop new products to sell on a world stage.

Research spending is not the majority of the spending in the bill. So I'm not sure why you think this counters my point in any way.

And as for increased research spending, I'm all for it, but there's no bloody reason to include it in an emergency stimulus package. Why can't that be covered by normal spending bills?

Nice theory, completely rooted in an equal amount of assumptions as any other economic theory. Allowing multiple major entities in the country go under could be good. I can't see what could go wrong with >10% unemployment, deflation, lower tax revenue to invest into infrastructure, reduced borrowing power, reduced strength in world economy, reduced military strength due to a reduced tax revenue.....

All of which can get triggered from increased inflation as well. Which we're destined to get with this sort of massive deficit spending.

In order to get economic growth, you can't just spend more. That's an inherently futile move, since money is not wealth. For real economic growht, you need to increase productivity. Rapid, massive government spending CANNOT be allocated efficiently. Which means much of it will, by necessity, be poured into low-productivity sources. Why would this help us increase productivity? There's an argument to be made that restoring confidence can have an important positive impact (encouraging people to invest, hire workers, etc - moves which CAN increase productivity), enough possibly to justify otherwise unproductive steps. But this bill is such a mess, so poorly justified, and so ill-received by the public that I don't see any reason to think it will even help with that.

 

[BPSCG]

And as for increased research spending, I'm all for it, but there's no bloody reason to include it in an emergency stimulus package. Why can't that be covered by normal spending bills?

I know that's a rhetorical question, but here's the answer:

Because if you try to add four or five hundred billion dollars to normal appropriations, you won't be able to get it through even this Democrat-controlled Congress.

Normally, pork-barrel legislation amounts to getting a million bucks added to the Defense Department's budget to paint lines on a bike path in a congressman's district. After all, what's a million bucks in a $300 billion budget? What, you're gonna hold up the appropriations for the entire DoD because there's a million bucks there to paint some lines? Get real, dude.

The Dems see this as their once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to pass every piece of pork-barrel spending they ever dreamed of, as well as a lot they hadn't. This is a national emergency!!! If we don't pass this stimulus package, the whole economy will collapse!!! OMG!!! We have to pass this emergency legislation!!! So what if there's some waste in it? Are you going to risk the complete collapse of our economy because you're afraid of a little waste?

This isn't pork-barrel. This is an ocean freighter full of pork.

But this bill is such a mess, so poorly justified, and so ill-received by the public that I don't see any reason to think it will even help with that.

I think the technical term is "dog's breakfast."