The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread

[Lplus]

It's probably a good idea to take away their voting rights first, though. Most elderly people vote conservative, but they might change their minds if they realize the Tories intend to let them die so their assets can be "passed on".

Gratuitous political fluff.

 

[quadraginta]

Probably varies with location. Here in San Diego everyone in the grocery store as well as Costco wears masks. There's a sign requiring it.

Even in the localities requiring face mask nere there is no real enforcement. The state "recommends them, and allows local governments to set their own rules. Quite a few have theoretically mandated them (with non-trivial loopholes for religious and "medical" exemptions). But this doesn't seem to have done the trick. Many businesses like grocery stores, while having the legal right to ask people who refuse to wear masks to leave the premises, are hesitant to enforce that right.

Some businesses are outright refusing to comply. One BBQ restaurant in Raleigh has even gone as far as posting a sign on their door stating that not only are they not enforcing the mask, they are rejecting the 'six foot' table separation requirement that is mandated state-wide, and encourages patrons to sit wherever they want.

Then there's the racetrack that got closed down for filling its bleachers full of spectators in rebellion against state rules and is now engaged in a court battle with the state.

More and more this is turning into a politicized issue, with people who encourage safe practices being viewed as Trump-hating 'libruls'.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I've got a real problem here in Hawaii where politicians, local leaders and people in general think I have betrayed them and they are really unable to hold to the recommended policies anymore.

I did as much as I could since the beginning to really push and link and explain the science behind this and what the sensible policies were and many of the people involved.

After fighting very very very hard to convince their constituents, the local leaders were able to get mask wearing and distancing to become culturally accepted, and often would share videos I linked of health experts.

Now many of those same experts have come out in videos saying "social justice is more important than social distancing" as if that's some dichotomy, and outright encouraging protestors massed up in a ball with no masks and no possibility of distancing.

So now I'm a liar

Now all of the push these leaders have had to try and save the local people is out the window and many will not be reelected.

I want to barf, I feel so betrayed

Before anyone goes stupid tribal (which seems to be the ^&^^^&%# problem thru this whole goddamn thing, worse than the virus), a short glance would tell you the political leanings here, so can't just go full TDS, its just people, who feel betrayed.

PEOPLE, not tribes, not left or right, not politics

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

According to this, there are apparently 140+ possible covid vaccines under study or development.
https://biorender.com/covid-vaccine-tracker

Question: Will the world ultimately decide on one, or could several be distributed to the public at the same time? Could there be a Chinese vaccine, a U.S. vaccine, a Euro vaccine, etc.? If so, would there be a medical reason not to get more than one if you could?

Given that we'll need several billion doses, the more companies who have developed a vaccine the better off we'll be.

 

[marting]

Even in the localities requiring face mask nere there is no real enforcement. The state "recommends them, and allows local governments to set their own rules. Quite a few have theoretically mandated them (with non-trivial loopholes for religious and "medical" exemptions). But this doesn't seem to have done the trick. Many businesses like grocery stores, while having the legal right to ask people who refuse to wear masks to leave the premises, are hesitant to enforce that right.

Up to the businesses but things like medical exemptions is tricky because it collides with laws requiring businesses to accommodate disabilities.

Some businesses are outright refusing to comply. One BBQ restaurant in Raleigh has even gone as far as posting a sign on their door stating that not only are they not enforcing the mask, they are rejecting the 'six foot' table separation requirement that is mandated state-wide, and encourages patrons to sit wherever they want.

There's a lot to be said for these sorts of natural experiments. You really can't do them on purpose due to ethical constraints but apparently there are willing guinea pigs.

More and more this is turning into a politicized issue, with people who encourage safe practices being viewed as Trump-hating 'libruls'.

Strange how it's so polarizing. But it's not just Trump. A good friend of my wife, who's a very liberal person with a proclivity for trusting crystals to determine whether fish is too old to eat, regularly forwards her links to Covid-19 deniers.

 

[Dr.Sid]

People simply can't tell well supported theory from hoax. It's so easy to produce fake information, that the real information gets lost. And there even seem to be evil intent, as many of these hoaxes seem to be manufactured or at least supported by Russia and China. It won't hurt their society, they can't speak English, or even access the real Internet.
For some reason people trust unofficial information more than official one, even if the form is the same.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

People tend to go with what they would like to hear..

 

[marting]

People tend to go with what they would like to hear..

This is exactly right. Which is why it's good to question that which aligns with one's pre-existing views a bit more than that which doesn't. It's not perfect, but it makes it easier to modify one's views as new evidence comes in. And it provides appropriate levels of skepticism without tossing out everything.

 

[Marcus]

Even in the localities requiring face mask nere there is no real enforcement. The state "recommends them, and allows local governments to set their own rules. Quite a few have theoretically mandated them (with non-trivial loopholes for religious and "medical" exemptions). But this doesn't seem to have done the trick. Many businesses like grocery stores, while having the legal right to ask people who refuse to wear masks to leave the premises, are hesitant to enforce that right.

Some businesses are outright refusing to comply. One BBQ restaurant in Raleigh has even gone as far as posting a sign on their door stating that not only are they not enforcing the mask, they are rejecting the 'six foot' table separation requirement that is mandated state-wide, and encourages patrons to sit wherever they want.

Then there's the racetrack that got closed down for filling its bleachers full of spectators in rebellion against state rules and is now engaged in a court battle with the state.

More and more this is turning into a politicized issue, with people who encourage safe practices being viewed as Trump-hating 'libruls'.

Here (Austin, it's a very liberal place) they are policing bars and restaurants and shutting down those which are not following the social distancing rules. Facemasks are different, they were able to arrest people for non-compliance but state law trumps local, now it's just a suggestion. I, along with most people, are wearing them in public anyway, it's not that much trouble.

 

[The Atheist]

Given I am approaching that age I obviously feel uneasy about casually excluding the over 70 demographic as if it wasn’t really relevant.

There's also the issue that people between 60 & 70 are much, much more likely to die than 0 - 30s. The rate goes up quite quickly once you get to 60.

The ages should be ignored - a life is a life.

I've got a real problem here in Hawaii where politicians, local leaders and people in general think I have betrayed them and they are really unable to hold to the recommended policies anymore.

I feel for you, mate.

I wouldn't have picked a pandemic to be politicised, but it sure as hell has been.

 

[The Don]

Here (Austin, it's a very liberal place) they are policing bars and restaurants and shutting down those which are not following the social distancing rules. Facemasks are different, they were able to arrest people for non-compliance but state law trumps local, now it's just a suggestion. I, along with most people, are wearing them in public anyway, it's not that much trouble.

I guess that's one of the challenges that the US faces, the degree to which the response relies on individual states, or even cities while inter-state and intra-state travel isn't constrained to any appreciable degree. State or City A could be doing a great job of social distancing, lockdown and the wearing of masks but they could be undermined by people from State or City B .

 

[arthwollipot]

I guess that's one of the challenges that the US faces, the degree to which the response relies on individual states, or even cities while inter-state and intra-state travel isn't constrained to any appreciable degree. State or City A could be doing a great job of social distancing, lockdown and the wearing of masks but they could be undermined by people from State or City B .

The other challenge that the US faces is the "don't tread on me" ethic and the general mistrust of government.

 

[Darat]

I've got a real problem here in Hawaii where politicians, local leaders and people in general think I have betrayed them and they are really unable to hold to the recommended policies anymore.

I did as much as I could since the beginning to really push and link and explain the science behind this and what the sensible policies were and many of the people involved.

After fighting very very very hard to convince their constituents, the local leaders were able to get mask wearing and distancing to become culturally accepted, and often would share videos I linked of health experts.

Now many of those same experts have come out in videos saying "social justice is more important than social distancing" as if that's some dichotomy, and outright encouraging protestors massed up in a ball with no masks and no possibility of distancing.

So now I'm a liar

Now all of the push these leaders have had to try and save the local people is out the window and many will not be reelected.

I want to barf, I feel so betrayed

Before anyone goes stupid tribal (which seems to be the ^&^^^&%# problem thru this whole goddamn thing, worse than the virus), a short glance would tell you the political leanings here, so can't just go full TDS, its just people, who feel betrayed.

PEOPLE, not tribes, not left or right, not politics

Bad position to be in. All I can say is that you obviously researched and sort out the best information available at the time and weren't trying to spin anything.

I think you won't be the first to find themselves in this position - I think what is more worrying is now when the current measures fail it is going to be even harder to get people to comply when they need to.

 

[Darat]

There's also the issue that people between 60 & 70 are much, much more likely to die than 0 - 30s. The rate goes up quite quickly once you get to 60.

The ages should be ignored - a life is a life.


I feel for you, mate.

I wouldn't have picked a pandemic to be politicised, but it sure as hell has been.

I'm going to strongly disagree with you. Many of those older people that have died would have in a better society and culture already have been allowed to die or euthanised long before the virus hit them, mainly the ones with various forms of cognitive degenerative diseases. To be blunt their life is not as important to save as say a 45 year old for example. And whilst our society may try to fool itself that we don't have such a view that is exposed to be the lie it is by the value we place on the care for those people.

And I'm not saying this as someone who knows they won't be affected by this view, my mother (79 very bad health) will die when she gets the virus, if the choice was between a ICU bed for her or her 27 year old grandson the decision is an emotionally hard but in practice easy decision to say she will die.

 

[zooterkin]

I'm going to strongly disagree with you. Many of those older people that have died would have in a better society and culture already have been allowed to die or euthanised long before the virus hit them, mainly the ones with various forms of cognitive degenerative diseases. To be blunt their life is not as important to save as say a 45 year old for example. And whilst our society may try to fool itself that we don't have such a view that is exposed to be the lie it is by the value we place on the care for those people.

And I'm not saying this as someone who knows they won't be affected by this view, my mother (79 very bad health) will die when she gets the virus, if the choice was between a ICU bed for her or her 27 year old grandson the decision is an emotionally hard but in practice easy decision to say she will die.

But you're not talking about age, per se, but condition and quality of life. My mother is 87, but she is physically active, and mentally alert. She's been sheltering at home because of her age and the fact she's slightly diabetic and has had heart failure. It would not in any way be a 'release' if she were to die early because of catching Covid-19. My mother-in-law is a different case; she's younger, but had a stroke a few years ago so is mentally and physically disabled, and living in a care home.

 

[Steve]

But you're not talking about age, per se, but condition and quality of life. My mother is 87, but she is physically active, and mentally alert. She's been sheltering at home because of her age and the fact she's slightly diabetic and has had heart failure. It would not in any way be a 'release' if she were to die early because of catching Covid-19. My mother-in-law is a different case; she's younger, but had a stroke a few years ago so is mentally and physically disabled, and living in a care home.

Exactly this. Similarly, my 86 yo mother lives alone in her own home. She has no significant health issues. She contributes to society and the economy by regularly spending her money. She helps employment by paying her own money for her weekly cleaning lady. She knits baby clothes and donates them to the local hospital auxiliary. She is an active member and volunteer at the local seniors centre. Her life and contributions to society are every bit as valuable as most random strangers a person may encounter and she has just as much right to heath care that will enable her to carry on with her productive life.

 

[Lplus]

But you're not talking about age, per se, but condition and quality of life. My mother is 87, but she is physically active, and mentally alert. She's been sheltering at home because of her age and the fact she's slightly diabetic and has had heart failure. It would not in any way be a 'release' if she were to die early because of catching Covid-19. My mother-in-law is a different case; she's younger, but had a stroke a few years ago so is mentally and physically disabled, and living in a care home.

Exactly this. Similarly, my 86 yo mother lives alone in her own home. She has no significant health issues. She contributes to society and the economy by regularly spending her money. She helps employment by paying her own money for her weekly cleaning lady. She knits baby clothes and donates them to the local hospital auxiliary. She is an active member and volunteer at the local seniors centre. Her life and contributions to society are every bit as valuable as most random strangers a person may encounter and she has just as much right to heath care that will enable her to carry on with her productive life.

I wonder what they would say if you asked them.

 

[Steve]

I wonder what they would say if you asked them.

Ask them what? “Would you like to continue living?”? No need for you to wonder. In the case of my mother she would say yes. Do you have a reason to think otherwise?

 

[Lplus]

Ask them what? “Would you like to continue living?”? No need for you to wonder. In the case of my mother she would say yes. Do you have a reason to think otherwise?

As my father entered his last years of life he often expressed his disappointment that he had woken up that morning and would have to go through yet another day of struggle on his way to death. As his condition got worse he asked me more than once if I knew of any way he could get out of the inevitable decline into bedridden incontinence that was indeed his final lot. Being asked by your own father for a means to euthanasia does tend to make you wonder just who's life is being discussed.

So yes, I do have reason to think the answer may be different.

 

[Tomboy]

As my father entered his last years of life he often expressed his disappointment that he had woken up that morning and would have to go through yet another day of struggle on his way to death. As his condition got worse he asked me more than once if I knew of any way he could get out of the inevitable decline into bedridden incontinence that was indeed his final lot. Being asked by your own father for a means to euthanasia does tend to make you wonder just who's life is being discussed.

So yes, I do have reason to think the answer may be different.

That, again, seems to be more an indication of quality of life, though, or, more specifically, lack of good quality of life because of limitations from declining health and other factors. Do you think he would have felt the same were he in good health?

My mom is 74 and my dad is 85. Both still live independently, do their own in store shopping (when not prevented by doing so by a pandemic) participate in various hobbies and activities, and exercise multiple times a week. Dad regularly goes for 5 mile bike rides and several mile walks, and mom likes to switch it up between youtube workouts in home, outdoor group exercise classes with other members of their 55+ community, and multi-mile walks on nearby trails.

If I'm honest, despite both of them having various health issues, they're probably in better shape and are more active than I am at 44 years old. Their existing health issues mean that neither is likely to survive Covid 19, but that's different from saying that their quality of life is so poor that death would be a desired outcome.

Dad's starting to slip cognitively a bit, but he still works part time remotely from home. Mom is sharp as a tack and has been enjoying various zoom classes in lieu of her usual in person church and community group classes.

There's no doubt in my mind that both value their lives and wish to continue living as long as their current quality of life can be maintained. There's also no doubt in my mind that were their quality of life to drastically decline to the point that they're not able to do the things they enjoy now, they'd be in a very different state of mind.