The New Palestinian PM: a Holocaust Denier

[Skeptic]

Are you saying that you don't know of the numerous instances of Israel killing innocent civilians?

Only when the innocent civilians are in proximity to know terrorists, etc. And israeli actions attempt to MINIMIZE civilian casualties, not kill as many of them as possible, like palestinian actions.

At any rate, the real asymmetry is very simple: the israelies wish to live in peace and are willing to share with the palestinians. The palestinians want the jews dead and gone.

Now, THAT was simple, wasn't it?

 

[a_unique_person]

Are you saying that you don't know of the numerous instances of Israel killing innocent civilians?

Only when the innocent civilians are in proximity to know terrorists, etc. And israeli actions attempt to MINIMIZE civilian casualties, not kill as many of them as possible, like palestinian actions.

At any rate, the real asymmetry is very simple: the israelies wish to live in peace and are willing to share with the palestinians. The palestinians want the jews dead and gone.

Now, THAT was simple, wasn't it?

I have no doubt that the Israelis wish to live in peace, the question is, on what terms. Ditto, the Palestinians.

 

[Baker]

Baker,

Are you saying that you think Israel has committed no acts of terror, murder or war crimes?

Are you saying that you don't know of the numerous instances of Israel killing innocent civilians?

Or is it rhetorical?

I am asking when have they purposely gone out killed innocent civilians.

 

[a_unique_person]

I am asking when have they purposely gone out killed innocent civilians.

Some of them have indeed, as have Israelis. Not all of them do this, as do not all Israelis.

 

[Baker]

Some of them have indeed, as have Israelis. Not all of them do this, as do not all Israelis.

Perhaps you can provide an example of Israel purposely going out and killing innocent civilians for me?

 

[a_unique_person]

Perhaps you can provide an example of Israel purposely going out and killing innocent civilians for me?

heres one

THE IBRAHIMI MOSQUE MASSACRE
- THE IBRAHIMI MOSQUE MASSACRE: 25 February 1994, A Jewish terrorist, from Keryat Arba' settlement massacred 60 worshipers in the Ibrahimi Mosque in al-Khalil (Hebron) and wounded about 200. Later massive demostrations took to the streets of Palestine and the Zionist army responded by life amunitions killing 23 and wounding hundreds more. Reports indicate there were 3 Jewish settler gunners, not only one.

there are more. this page appears to have a list.

http://www.angelfire.com/al/quwaizani/israel.html

 

[Denise]

To be honest, I don't get the whole Israeli love fest thing. They are commiting crimes as well but hardly any seem to care. I am not against the Jews, but let's use a little critical thinking here.

 

[Clancie]

That's a good example. Here's one as well:

Activist Shot in Gaza Said Brain Dead
Fri Apr 11, 3:54 PM ET

IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A 21-year-old British peace activist was shot Friday during fighting in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites), the second member of the Palestinian-backed International Solidarity Movement shot this month. Doctors declared him brain dead.

The other, an American, was seriously injured.

The Briton, Thomas Hurndall, from Manchester, was shot by a tank-mounted machine gun, suffering a head injury that left him comatose and hooked up to a respirator, doctors said.

The incident occurred on a road outside the Rafah refugee camp, near the border with Egypt, as activists tried to set up a tent to block army incursions into the camp, witnesses said.

Hurndall was standing between troops and Palestinian children at the time, said Khalil Abdullah, a Palestinian who witnessed the shooting.

Hurndall was declared brain dead after arriving at Rafah Hospital, said Dr. Ali Musa. He later was transferred to Sorokka Hospital in Israel.

The Israeli army had no comment about Friday's shooting but said it would investigate.

...Another American member of International Solidarity Movement — Rachel Corrie, 23, of Olympia, Wash. — was killed in Rafah last month when she fell in front of an Israeli bulldozer (that was bulldozing Palestinian homes). The group claimed the bulldozer ran over her and then backed up.

 

[Baker]

heres one

THE IBRAHIMI MOSQUE MASSACRE
- THE IBRAHIMI MOSQUE MASSACRE: 25 February 1994, A Jewish terrorist, from Keryat Arba' settlement massacred 60 worshipers in the Ibrahimi Mosque in al-Khalil (Hebron) and wounded about 200. Later massive demostrations took to the streets of Palestine and the Zionist army responded by life amunitions killing 23 and wounding hundreds more. Reports indicate there were 3 Jewish settler gunners, not only one.

there are more. this page appears to have a list.

http://www.angelfire.com/al/quwaizani/israel.html

Do you have a better source besides someone's personal Angelfire home page?

 

[Baker]

That's a good example. Here's one as well:

Activist Shot in Gaza Said Brain Dead
Fri Apr 11, 3:54 PM ET

IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A 21-year-old British peace activist was shot Friday during fighting in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites), the second member of the Palestinian-backed International Solidarity Movement shot this month. Doctors declared him brain dead.

The other, an American, was seriously injured.

The Briton, Thomas Hurndall, from Manchester, was shot by a tank-mounted machine gun, suffering a head injury that left him comatose and hooked up to a respirator, doctors said.

The incident occurred on a road outside the Rafah refugee camp, near the border with Egypt, as activists tried to set up a tent to block army incursions into the camp, witnesses said.

Hurndall was standing between troops and Palestinian children at the time, said Khalil Abdullah, a Palestinian who witnessed the shooting.

Hurndall was declared brain dead after arriving at Rafah Hospital, said Dr. Ali Musa. He later was transferred to Sorokka Hospital in Israel.

The Israeli army had no comment about Friday's shooting but said it would investigate.

...Another American member of International Solidarity Movement — Rachel Corrie, 23, of Olympia, Wash. — was killed in Rafah last month when she fell in front of an Israeli bulldozer (that was bulldozing Palestinian homes). The group claimed the bulldozer ran over her and then backed up.

Would you please post a link to the article in question here.

 

[Baker]

To be honest, I don't get the whole Israeli love fest thing. They are commiting crimes as well but hardly any seem to care. I am not against the Jews, but let's use a little critical thinking here.

You have to understand what I'm getting at I'm not saying Israel never makes mistakes but they don't send out suicide bomber's to blow up women and children I know you haven't listened to Rush Limbaugh in awhile but had the same point the Palestinian leadership has a long history of terror.

If you are not aware of the situwation over there how could know who is using critical thinking.

 

[Denise]

You have to understand what I'm getting at I'm not saying Israel never makes mistakes but they don't send out suicide bomber's to blow up women and children I know you haven't listened to Rush Limbaugh in awhile but had the same point the Palestinian leadership has a long history of terror.

If you are not aware of the situwation over there how could know who is using critical thinking.

LOL! Serious now, would the Israeli's send out suicide bombers if they were in the situation that the Palestinians are in? I think probably yes. The Palestinians are being treated in a very bad way by Israel. In that I have no doubt. What is the solution? No idea, but to say that Israel is in the right and Palestine is always wrong smacks of uncritical thinking to me.

 

[Clancie]

I'll try to find the first article again for the link. Meanwhile, how about Shabra and Chatilla?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/lebanon020304_case.html

B E I R U T, Lebanon — In her tiny home in the Palestinian refugee camp of Sabra in Beirut, Nadima Nasser dabs her eyes as she recalls the horrific events of September 1982, when virtually every male in her family was slaughtered or disappeared in one of the worst atrocities of the Middle East conflict.

Naseer is one of 23 plaintiffs in a lawsuit filed in a Belgian court against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for his alleged involvement in the September 1982 massacres in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Chatilla.

More than 800 people were killed or went missing in a three-day killing spree by Lebanese Christian militiamen allowed into the camps by Israeli soldiers.

Some estimates, however, put the death toll at 1,800. Israel had invaded Lebanon in June 1982 and as occupiers responsible for the security of civilians in Lebanon, Israeli troops were stationed around the camps during the time the massacres occurred.

On Wednesday, a legal panel is expected to rule on whether Sharon can be tried in a Brussels court under a 1993 Belgian law, which allows crimes against humanity and genocide to be tried in Belgian courts, regardless of where the crimes were committed.

Sharon's lawyers have argued that the Israeli prime minister — who was defense minister during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon when the massacres occurred — enjoys diplomatic immunity. They have also questioned the competence of the court to try a crime not committed on Belgian soil.

...Although Sharon has pleaded innocence in the case, saying he could not have predicted and did not know what was going on in the camps those three days, an official Israeli investigation in 1983 found him indirectly but "personally" responsible for the deaths.

Following the recommendations of the Kahan Commission, Sharon resigned as defense minister, but stayed on in the government as a minister without portfolio until he was elected prime minister in February 2001....

 

[Clancie]

U.N. Human Rights Body Criticizes Israel
Tue Apr 15,11:45 AM ET

By CLARE NULLIS, Associated Press Writer

GENEVA - The United Nations' top human rights body overwhelmingly condemned Israel's human rights record on Tuesday, accusing the country of "mass killings of Palestinians" and a host of other violations.

...By a 50-1 vote, the commission passed a resolution put forward by European countries voicing "grave concern" because Israel has not halted settlements of Palestinian territory. It criticized restrictions on the movements of Palestinians and a barrier Israel is building to separate it from the Palestinian territories.

 

[Clancie]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

One more, from today's news, at Ha'aretz.com:

IAF kills five, wounds 50 in Gaza attack

By Arnon Regular

Israel Air Force helicopter gunships fired missiles at a car in Gaza City after sundown yesterday, killing five people and wounding around 50. The attack took place in Gaza City's Zeitoun neighborhood, known as a Hamas stronghold, and targeted Sa'id Arabid, one of the leaders of the organization's military wing. Arabid and one of his aides, Ashraf Halabi, were killed.

Palestinian sources reported that at least one child was killed in the attack.

The incident was Israel's first air strike in Gaza since the beginning of the war in Iraq. Till now, Israel had scaled back its military operations during the fighting in the Gulf, apparently to avoid drawing attention to its struggle with the Palestinians.

The dead were not immediately identified.

The mangled bodies were taken to Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, where pandemonium reigned as ambulances ferried casualties from the scene of the strike.

Gaza residents reported seeing two Israeli F-16 fighter planes circling low over Gaza City, breaking the sound barrier, in the minutes before the air strike.

A witness, Yussuf Touth, 24, said he had seen a white car approaching an intersection when he noticed the two planes. "And then suddenly I saw a big flame in the sky" and the missile hit the car.

Touth was wounded in both legs and lay covered in blood in the hospital. "I saw bodies torn to pieces," he said.

The Israel Defense Forces confirmed that Arabid had been the target. Israel has carried out many similar attacks during the intifada, targeting suspected Palestinian militants. Palestinians and human rights groups have condemned the practice.

 

[Baker]

I'll try to find the first article again for the link. Meanwhile, how about Shabra and Chatilla?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/lebanon020304_case.html

They where killed by Lebanese Christian militiamen it was a terrible tragedy but there is no proof that Sharon's or Israeli was involved in it.

 

[Baker]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

One more, from today's news, at Ha'aretz.com:

IAF kills five, wounds 50 in Gaza attack

By Arnon Regular

Israel Air Force helicopter gunships fired missiles at a car in Gaza City after sundown yesterday, killing five people and wounding around 50. The attack took place in Gaza City's Zeitoun neighborhood, known as a Hamas stronghold, and targeted Sa'id Arabid, one of the leaders of the organization's military wing. Arabid and one of his aides, Ashraf Halabi, were killed.

Palestinian sources reported that at least one child was killed in the attack.

The incident was Israel's first air strike in Gaza since the beginning of the war in Iraq. Till now, Israel had scaled back its military operations during the fighting in the Gulf, apparently to avoid drawing attention to its struggle with the Palestinians.

The dead were not immediately identified.

The mangled bodies were taken to Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, where pandemonium reigned as ambulances ferried casualties from the scene of the strike.

Gaza residents reported seeing two Israeli F-16 fighter planes circling low over Gaza City, breaking the sound barrier, in the minutes before the air strike.

A witness, Yussuf Touth, 24, said he had seen a white car approaching an intersection when he noticed the two planes. "And then suddenly I saw a big flame in the sky" and the missile hit the car.

Touth was wounded in both legs and lay covered in blood in the hospital. "I saw bodies torn to pieces," he said.

The Israel Defense Forces confirmed that Arabid had been the target. Israel has carried out many similar attacks during the intifada, targeting suspected Palestinian militants. Palestinians and human rights groups have condemned the practice.

Ok so they killed a Hamas terrorist there was some civilians harmed but Israel was not targeting them I do agree Israel should try to be more careful in their attempts to stop terrorist.

As I have said when have they purposely gone to kill innocent civilians!

 

[Clancie]

Baker: ...There is no proof that Sharon's or Israeli was involved in it

From the above article (ABC):

...More than 800 people were killed or went missing in a three-day killing spree by Lebanese Christian militiamen allowed into the camps by Israeli soldiers.

...Some estimates, however, put the death toll at 1,800. Israel had invaded Lebanon in June 1982 and as occupiers responsible for the security of civilians in Lebanon, Israeli troops were stationed around the camps during the time the massacres occurred.

"...an official Israeli investigation in 1983 found him (Sharon) indirectly but "personally" responsible for the deaths."

Following the recommendations of the Kahan Commission, Sharon resigned as defense minister....

 

[Baker]

LOL! Serious now, would the Israeli's send out suicide bombers if they were in the situation that the Palestinians are in? I think probably yes. The Palestinians are being treated in a very bad way by Israel. In that I have no doubt. What is the solution? No idea, but to say that Israel is in the right and Palestine is always wrong smacks of uncritical thinking to me.

So you are saying there is nothing wrong with using suicide bombers killing innocent women and children?
Now who needs critical thinking here.
Just how are the Palestinians being treated in a very bad way by Israel?
And I never Israel is always right and Palestine is always wrong.

 

[Baker]

From the above article (ABC):

...More than 800 people were killed or went missing in a three-day killing spree by Lebanese Christian militiamen allowed into the camps by Israeli soldiers.

...Some estimates, however, put the death toll at 1,800. Israel had invaded Lebanon in June 1982 and as occupiers responsible for the security of civilians in Lebanon, Israeli troops were stationed around the camps during the time the massacres occurred.

"...an official Israeli investigation in 1983 found him (Sharon) indirectly but "personally" responsible for the deaths."

Following the recommendations of the Kahan Commission, Sharon resigned as defense minister....

Sharon let them in there but did he know that they would kill innocent civilians?
Yes he indirectly responsible he shouldn’t have let them in there I agree he made a mistake but is there any proof that he had it planed that way?
No there isn’t now can you please show me something that can be proved.