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The New Palestinian PM: a Holocaust Denier

Skeptic

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Abu Mazen, the new Palestinian PM, is apparently not exactly the dove of peace he claims to be. For starters, he is a holocaust denier and a supporter of terrorism.

What a shock, to find out the new paletinian Prime Minister--the man Arafat appointed under US pressure to show the palestinians want peace--harbors genocidal hatered to the jews and thinks the holocaust is a jewish conspiracy.

I'm SO disappointed. Who could have imagined it? Such peaceful, non-antisemitic people like the palestinians electing a holocaust denying conspiracy theorist as their official leader? I'm beginning to suspect the palestinians don't want peace, but rather the genocide of the jews, for some strange reason...
 
Ararat, and all his croanies need a bullet to the head. That will give the Palestinians a chance at a fresh start.
 
Richard G said:
Ararat, and all his croanies need a bullet to the head. That will give the Palestinians a chance at a fresh start.

If Arafat were to have an accident of some type--a plane crash, his car blowing up, etc, that would cause the entire PLO terrorist group to fracture. It would be a good thing for the Palestinian people, but the old bastard has too much luck at avoiding such fates.

JK
 
Funny, no reply from those on this forum so eager to justify the palestinians...

Apparently when it comes to holocaust denial--a common theme in palestinian political writing--even they can't find any justification for it.

But I'm sure that for some reason, somehow, mysteriously, it's all israel's fault that the palestinians deny the holocaust.
 
Skeptic said:
Funny, no reply from those on this forum so eager to justify the palestinians...

Apparently when it comes to holocaust denial--a common theme in palestinian political writing--even they can't find any justification for it.

But I'm sure that for some reason, somehow, mysteriously, it's all israel's fault that the palestinians deny the holocaust.

Either that or the Jews killed themselves. Damn Jews, always making trouble.
 
Well, duh. The PLO is the most notorious terrorist group of the last century. Jordan, Lebanon, and now the west bank.

The problem is over time the PLO has somehow become legiitmized. Would an american president inviting them over for photo ops have anything to do with that?
 
Funny, no reply from those on this forum so eager to justify the Palestinians
Oh, allow me. I have plenty of comment about this article from the National Review.

First, nowhere do I see any evidence that Abu Mazen denies the Holocaust. Amid all the rhetoric in this opinion piece, the only fact presented against him is simply that, given a translation of his writings, the Simon Weisenthal Center asked for a clarification. But no one credible (like the SW Center) has said Mazen's writings prove he advocates the destruction of Israel, hates Jews, denies the Holocaust, etc. etc.

How can anyone be impressed by the vitriol of this piece? There's no journalism here at all. Take this, for example:

(That he was) selected by arch-terrorist Arafat to take on the mantle of authority should already give pause to those committed to fighting terrorism. In fact, anyone involved with the corrupt, duplicitous terrorist organization called the PLO...should by now be considered unfit to lead anything but a prison-work detail. Beyond his senior position in the PLO, however, Abu Mazen is also a Holocaust revisionist, a conspiracy theorist, and a promoter of terrorism.

Big big claims and lots of attack rhetoric in this op/ed-style thing--even a lot of criticism directed at Israelis who are more moderate than Sharon (actually, Sharon himself seems too moderate for this writer!)

Unfortunately this editorial just doesn't come up with the goods, journalistically speaking. Lots of angry and inflammatory rhetoric but no facts to back it up. (However, the eager way those of you who hate the Palestinians seem to lap it all up so uncritically is fascinating).
 
The reason the author gave no "proof" of Abu Mazen's holocaust denial is that it is well know--in the form of a book he published.

In his Arabic-language book, "The Other Side: the secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism", Abu Mazen attempts to refute the "Zionist fantasy, the fantastic lie that six million Jews were killed."

Instead, he suggests a cynical and macabre connection between the Nazis and the Zionists, and that "only" 890,000 Jews were killed by Hitler - these as the victims of a Zionist-Nazi plot whose goal (of course) was to convince the jews to emigrate to palestine and "steal" it.

In sum, according to Abu Mazen in his book, the palestinians are the "real victims" of Hitler while the jews cooperated with him.

Of course, the book is not available in English--it's about as easy to find a translation as it is to find an English copy of the palestinian national charter which contains the embarrasing arabic sections about killing and/or expelling all the jews. But the book is well-known in the arab world.

Anything else I can clarify about Mazen you want to know?


P.S.

Quite apart from the fact that six million jews DID die, it is a bit of a puzzle why, if they were such "victims" of Hitler, did the palestinian leader at the time (Haj Amin El-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem) raise two SS divisions for Hitler, made up of Palestinian volunteers and European Muslims from Yugoslavia.

These divisions (from the SS's racial point of view a dubious affair, but manpower shortage in 1943 forced them to take anybody they could) were known as the "Hanjar" divisions. They proved virtually useless in combat against the Red Army, so they were moved to rearguard duties in Yugoslavia and the Balkans, where they excelled in committing atrocities against the "infidel" Serbs and (of course) jews. For this and other reasons, Husseini became a wanted war criminal after the war. He lived out his days in Syria after 1945.


P.P.S.

By the way, Faisal Husseini, the recently deceased palestinian "minister of Jerusalem", was Haj Amin El-Husseini's nephew, and grew up under the latter's tutolage in the late 30s and early 40s. This gives you an idea of the kind of traditionally peaceful people Arafat chooses as his ministers.

Faisal Husseini was considered (like Abu Mazen is considered) a "moderate"--in fact, he was considered THE "moderate" palestinian leader. This is odd, don't you think? It is not that Faisal Husseini was necessarily the same in all respects as his uncle, but when a nation cannot find anybody more "moderate" than THAT, something is amiss... it's as if post-war Germany searched high and low and claimed it could not find anybody who was more peaceful and anti-Nazi's than Hitler's cousin.

But of course, I am forgetting myself: Husseini and Abu Mazen are "moderates" only in the palestinian sense of the term. That is, they limited themselves to JUSTIFYING the butchery of jews in THEORETICAL works (like Mazen's holocaust-denying book and most of Husseini's writing) instead of getting their hands dirty with ACTUAL killing of jews in practice. But they sure as hell approve.

On this definition of "moderate", of course, Joseph Goebbles was a "moderate" as well, since he limited himself to shouting how all the jews must be killed and didn't actually send too many of them to death himself (except for the Jews of Berlin.) And yet the world is SHOCKED at israel's reluctance to deal with such "moderate" people.


P.P.P.S.

I'm sure it's a SHOCKING surprise that an SS arab divison behaved in such a barbaric fashion, that Arafat would nominate the nephew of the the most notorious palestinian war criminal of WWII as the minister of Jerusalem, in addition to the already shocking discovery that the new "moderate" palestinian PM is a holocaust denier.

Who would have guessed?
 
corplinx said:
Well, duh. The PLO is the most notorious terrorist group of the last century. Jordan, Lebanon, and now the west bank.

The problem is over time the PLO has somehow become legiitmized. Would an american president inviting them over for photo ops have anything to do with that?

lol

JK
 
Clancy said:

Oh, allow me. I have plenty of comment about this article from the National Review.

First, nowhere do I see any evidence that Abu Mazen denies the Holocaust. Amid all the rhetoric in this opinion piece, the only fact presented against him is simply that, given a translation of his writings, the Simon Weisenthal Center asked for a clarification. But no one credible (like the SW Center) has said Mazen's writings prove he advocates the destruction of Israel, hates Jews, denies the Holocaust, etc. etc.

How can anyone be impressed by the vitriol of this piece? There's no journalism here at all. Take this, for example:



Big big claims and lots of attack rhetoric in this op/ed-style thing--even a lot of criticism directed at Israelis who are more moderate than Sharon (actually, Sharon himself seems too moderate for this writer!)

Unfortunately this editorial just doesn't come up with the goods, journalistically speaking. Lots of angry and inflammatory rhetoric but no facts to back it up. (However, the eager way those of you who hate the Palestinians seem to lap it all up so uncritically is fascinating).

Here are more links on it Clancy if you still don’t believe the story.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=2122
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=IA9502
http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/press/items/JewishSentinel281099.html


There is also denial in the Arab world. In the pre-Oslo period, Yasser Arafat's second-in-command, Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), wrote in his book, The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and the Zionist Movement, that the Nazis may have killed fewer than one million Jews and that "the Zionist movement was a partner in the slaughter of the Jews."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/press/items/JewishSentinel281099.html
 
In his Arabic-language book, "The Other Side: the secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism", Abu Mazen attempts to refute..."

Do you read Arabic and do your own translation or do you have a source for this?
 
Baker,

Thanks for the sources, but the first two are hardly objective. The third probably isn't either, but more to the point, it just repeats the one sentence that "Skeptic" quoted above--but doesn't source it either.

Don't you both think that if Abu Mazen is such a bad guy, and a known Holocaust denier, that there'd be more comment about it across the political spectrum, not just in these obviously avidly anti-Palestinian sources?
 
Clancy said:


Do you read Arabic and do your own translation or do you have a source for this?

Did you check any of the news links I posted they all say the same thing that it was wrote in his book, The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and the Zionist Movement.
 
Clancey Wrote:

However, the eager way those of you who hate the Palestinians seem to lap it all up so uncritically is fascinating).


Clancey, I DO find it fascinating that the palestinian PM is a holocaust denier and yet is considered a "moderate"--mainly because he only wrote THEORETICAL works that merely JUSTIFY killing the jews and destroying israel, instead of doing or attempting to do it himself (like Arafat, Hamas, etc.)

But it's hardly "uncritical" fascination. More of a "horrified" fascination, actually.

Think carefully on whose side on you on, Clancey. You are supporting the people whose leader is the biggest killer of jews since Hitler, and whose appointed PM denies Hitler even killed jews in the first place. Yet it is not THEM you consider evil, but their intended (and actual) victims, the jews.

What's wrong with this picture?

P.S.

If you consider Abu Mazen a "moderate", please tell me why. Tell me what the difference is between his views and that of the local neo-nazis.
 
Clancy said:


Do you read Arabic and do your own translation or do you have a source for this?

See Baker's post. I don't read German, either, but I know Hitler didn't like jews, by the way.
 
Clancy said:
Baker,

Thanks for the sources, but the first two are hardly objective. The third probably isn't either, but more to the point, it just repeats the one sentence that "Skeptic" quoted above--but doesn't source it either.

Don't you both think that if Abu Mazen is such a bad guy, and a known Holocaust denier, that there'd be more comment about it across the political spectrum, not just in these obviously avidly anti-Palestinian sources?

Is USA Today OK?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20030325/ts_usatoday/4985858

Mazen has written several books, one of which claimed that only 1 million Jews -- not the 6 million historians estimate -- were killed in the Holocaust.

However, same article does go on to say he recanted and opposed the current uprising.


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6340

While European Union officials praised Yasser Arafat's decision to appoint his first-ever prime minister, historians of the Holocaust winced at the news that a leading candidate for the job is the author of a book denying that the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews.
The candidate is Mahmoud Abbas (also known as Abu Mazen), Arafat's second in command, and his book, published in Arabic in 1983, translates as "The Other Side: The Secret Relations Between Nazism and the Leadership of the Zionist Movement." It was originally his doctoral dissertation, completed at Moscow Oriental College.

The book repeatedly attempts to cast doubt on the fact that the Nazis slaughtered 6 million Jews, according to a translation provided by the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles.

"Following the war," he writes, "word was spread that six million Jews were amongst the victims and that a war of extermination was aimed primarily at the Jews...The truth is that no one can either confirm or deny this figure. In other words, it is possible that the number of Jewish victims reached six million, but at the same time it is possible that the figure is much smaller -- below one million."

Abbas denies that the gas chambers were used to murder Jews, quoting a "scientific study" to that effect by French Holocaust-denier Robert Faurisson.

Abbas' book then asserts: "The historian and author Raoul Hilberg thinks that the figure does not exceed 890,000."

That is, of course, utterly false. Hilberg, a distinguished historian and author of the classic study "The Destruction of the European Jews," has never said or written any such thing.

Abbas believes the 6 million figure is the product of a Zionist conspiracy: "It seems that the interest of the Zionist movement...is to inflate this figure so that their gains will be greater," he writes. "This led them to emphasize this figure in order to gain the solidarity of international public opinion with Zionism. Many scholars have debated the figure of six million and reached stunning conclusions -- fixing the number of Jewish victims at only a few hundred thousand."

Another falsehood. In fact, no serious scholar proposes such a figure.

After reducing the magnitude of the Nazi slaughter so that it no longer seems to have been a full-scale Holocaust, Abbas seeks to absolve the Nazis by blaming the Zionist leadership for whatever killings did take place. According to Abbas, "A partnership was established between Hitler's Nazis and the leadership of the Zionist movement...[the Zionists gave] permission to every racist in the world, led by Hitler and the Nazis, to treat Jews as they wish, so long as it guarantees immigration to Palestine."

In addition to encouraging the persecution of Jews so they would immigrate to the Holy Land, the Zionist leaders actually wanted Jews to be murdered, because -- in Abbas' words -- "having more victims meant greater rights and stronger privilege to join the negotiation table for dividing the spoils of war once it was over. However, since Zionism was not a fighting partner -- suffering victims in a battle -- it had no escape but to offer up human beings, under any name, to raise the number of victims, which they could then boast of at the moment of accounting."
 
Is USA Today OK?

No. It's part of the jewish media conspiracy.

However, same article does go on to say he recanted and opposed the current uprising.

Of course, Arafat said he accepted peace and israel's right to exist, too.

(In English when the Americans were listening, that is.)
 
Don't you both think that if Abu Mazen is such a bad guy, and a known Holocaust denier, that there'd be more comment about it across the political spectrum,

So now your "reason" for denying the clear fact that he DID write this book and IS a holocaust denier is that the world didn't react exactly as it should, in your opinion?

I suppose Arafat is a peaceful man, too: after all, the world gave him the Nobel peace prize, didn't it? If he REALLY wanted to destroy israel, would they give him this prize?

P.S.

By the way, I wonder what you mean for reaction "across the political spectrum". Surely this doesn't include the left--they support Saddam as well.
 
Renata,

Yes, that's a much better article. I would think people who want peace in the Middle East would be quite pleased with this man (if he wrote in error about the Holocaust--as it seems--it's really not the same as saying it never happened at all. More to the point, he has been corrected and publicly accepts the correction. I think that's very positive.

These interested me, too.

Mazen's new position, many hope, may finally dilute the absolute power of longtime Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat
By most accounts, Mazen, a moderate favored by U.S. policymakers...
The position was only reluctantly agreed to by Arafat, earlier this year, after immense international political pressure for reform of the Palestinian Authority
Mazen made it clear he would not consider the job without full control over his appointments. His acceptance and parliament's defiance of Arafat were seen as promising victories in reducing Arafat's power -- and in moving forward the prospects for a peace settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Possibly no Palestinian understands better the process of peace negotiations than Mazen. He played a critical role in formulating the Oslo peace accords, and signed them on behalf of the Palestinians. He also stood alongside former president Bill Clinton at the failed Camp David peace summit in 2000.
Most important to many here, especially Israelis and the international community, has been his criticism of the intifada (or uprising) that has claimed some 2,000 Israeli and Palestinian lives in the past 30 months. The uprising, he says, ''should never have been militarized.''
...both Hamas and Islamic Jihad disagree with Mazen's calls for an end to their suicide bombings and attacks on Jewish settlements
''But he is a man of hard mission. He doesn't need to be prime minister or even want to be, but he has a commitment to peace.''

Mazen sounds like a refreshing change from Arafat politically (as well as being a very well educated, cultured, modest and personable family man.).

I would think people would give him a chance. He sounds like someone who really might be able to make a positive difference.
 
Skeptic: Surely this doesn't include the left--they support Saddam as well.

"The left" does not support Saddam.

They opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq in order to oust Saddam...or find WMD...or send a message about terrorism...or whatever it was that we finally said was the real reason we were there.

The opposition to invading Iraq from the so-called "left" was not because they said, "Saddam's great and he's our guy."
 

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