The Multiverse

[BobM]

Also this.. discussing the crux of the multiverse issue as well. (haven't read it over yet.)

Two philosophical applications of algorithmic information theory

 

[Shroud of Akron]

not that i am qualified to make a valid point on the infinite realities theory, but isn't it possible that with infinite space, you could just end up with infinite diversity. isn't that like saying, and i quote "A large sequence of numbers surely MUST repeat."

 

[BobM]

not that i am qualified to make a valid point on the infinite realities theory, but isn't it possible that with infinite space, you could just end up with infinite diversity. isn't that like saying, and i quote "A large sequence of numbers surely MUST repeat."

I think part of the idea is that there may be infinite space but only a finite number of possible states.

Also, alot rides on the question of whether math is "real" or real.

 

[Theodore Kurita]

One question.


Why is the level 3 multiverse more controversial than the level 4 multiverse?

I mean the level 3 multiverse is based on the theory of Quantum Mechanics! Why is it under fire so much???

 

[BobM]

Why is the level 3 multiverse more controversial than the level 4 multiverse?

I mean the level 3 multiverse is based on the theory of Quantum Mechanics! Why is it under fire so much???

Level III is the standard "many worlds" interpetation of QM. It's "under fire" because it WAS the basically the only MWI.

That's why it's funny that it turns out that the Lvl III MWI isn't useful.

 

[clk]

I mean the level 3 multiverse is based on the theory of Quantum Mechanics! Why is it under fire so much???

Didn't you say that Cybershaman was based on the theory of Quantum Mechanics? Here's your quote:

Ernie Vega the guy that program "Cybershaman" based all of his equations on Quantum Chaos Models! He just took the idea and realized that this Quantum Chaos can also be used to do subtle Casual Manifestation. Here is the webpage that will explain all on nonlinear physics! Here it is: http://physics.clarku.edu/~akudrolli/nls.html

Why is Cybershaman so controversial? After all, it's based on Quantum Mechanics, right? Dumbass.

 

[evildave]

I think to boil it down concisely, it's not that big numbers are difficult to represent or that many numbers are easy to generate.

It's getting the RIGHT numbers that's the real trick.

However beautifully your "simple" system describes narrow aspects of reality, there's always going yo be more reality that it doesn't correctly model.

No matter how well we build telescopes and instruments to measure the cosmos, we're always making assumptions based on small samples, and that's at best a flawed way of going about your "discovery" of new things.

Or to simplify it to a greater extent, do you really believe there's a parallel universe "out there" that has an England with good sandwiches? Unthinkable.

 

[BobM]

Or to simplify it to a greater extent, do you really believe there's a parallel universe "out there" that has an England with good sandwiches? Unthinkable

Is it? You just thought it. If the configuration of matter in your brain is capable of imagining an England with tasty sandwiches, then why isn't a configuration of matter in the universe capable of being it?

What if the universe never changes? What if time is merely movement of consioucness from one configuration to another nearby configuration? Admittedly the configuration where England has good food is unreachable from here.

 

[BobM]

Scribble...

I thought of an example, maybe.

Large primes. The program to find a specific large prime is a complex algorithm.

The program to find the set of integers that contains that large prime is simple.

 

[c4ts]

Is it? You just thought it. If the configuration of matter in your brain is capable of imagining an England with tasty sandwiches, then why isn't a configuration of matter in the universe capable of being it?

That looks like solipsism to me.

 

[GodIsDead]

I personally believe that the universe is limited instead of infinite. I base this on the observing the microscopic like atoms. Maybe all the universes are held together like atoms which make up something else entirely. I think the microscopic mirrors the macroscopic.

 

[evildave]

Well, on the sandwiches we agree.

Actually, the algorithm to find a great, big prime number can be quite simple. Just get yourself a "bignum" library and then iteratively "try" numbers then iteratively check modulus against all the numbers less than it until you get one that doesn't have any zero mods. Then you notice "Hey, this takes FOREVER!"

Then the first you skip the evens, since any number higher than 2 is going to be divisible by two. Then you know to only try values up to the integer square root of the prime you're testing. Then you keep adding more and more rules to save time and memory, and it gets complicated.

The algorithm to do the prime check in a reasonable time with reasonable resources becomes very complex.


As for the quantity of universe, my hypothesis is that it's a wrap-around universe, and we've already passed the point where all of the matter has gone past the edge, and the light just hasn't reached us to show it. It'll all crash back together again, even though it's apparently accelerating *apart*, but n-dimensionally, it's accelerating towards a point.

 

[Dub]

Or to simplify it to a greater extent, do you really believe there's a parallel universe "out there" that has an England with good sandwiches? Unthinkable.

Never You need to pop-over to Wales for them

 

[Shroud of Akron]

I think part of the idea is that there may be infinite space but only a finite number of possible states.

Also, alot rides on the question of whether math is "real" or real.

i understand this, the point is, however unlikey my assumption may be, given infinite space with finite matter/energy there are infinite possible arrangements or states of matter/energy.

 

[scribble]

Scribble...

I thought of an example, maybe.

Large primes. The program to find a specific large prime is a complex algorithm.

The program to find the set of integers that contains that large prime is simple.

I have to disagree, still.

When you find a large prime, you are attaching a label to that number that is 'it's a prime.' And the cost of finding that label, as you said, is quite high.

Printing all numbrs is irrelevant to the problem of finding primes -- you still don't know which one is which. I think this is a red herring, with all due respect.

-Chris

 

[BobM]

I have to disagree, still.

When you find a large prime, you are attaching a label to that number that is 'it's a prime.' And the cost of finding that label, as you said, is quite high.

Printing all numbrs is irrelevant to the problem of finding primes -- you still don't know which one is which. I think this is a red herring, with all due respect.

I'm not sure I follow. I was just illustrating the principle espoused by the article's author. That an ensemble is sometimes simplier than a specific member of the ensemble. The actual task isn't important here. Be it finding primes or creating the universe(s).

 

[BillyTK]

Never You need to pop-over to Wales for them

Well, there is that groovy little sandwich bar at the end of High Street Arcade in Cardiff that does a mean roasted mediterranean vegetable ciabatta but I don't think that's a typically Welsh dish?

On the other hand Wales has given us that culinary delight known as "half'n'half"...

Otherwise, nothing to add on the multiverse thing. I find the whole idea kind of worrying; it's bad enough there's one of me to think about without having to consider there may be a whole bunch of alternate versions, who I bet are having bags more fun than I am...

 

[c4ts]

I'm not sure I follow. I was just illustrating the principle espoused by the article's author. That an ensemble is sometimes simplier than a specific member of the ensemble. The actual task isn't important here. Be it finding primes or creating the universe(s).

Game theory comes to mind.