The Mormons' Challenge

[kblood]

Oh, I know what they say about it. I was more interested in destroying their faith in their religion.

I've seen them a lot lately. There were a couple at one of the fests a couple weeks ago too. I hope they don't decide to try talk to people at any of the wine fests or the upcoming Volksfest. Telling someone in leather pants that they should join their church and not drink beer may not be the best idea ever.

No worries, they usually stay away from places that serve alcohol. Even though its often very productive...

 

[Crossbow]

Few people know their linage... religious practice or belief is not the determining factor.

Well, if that is the case, then one does not need to pay any attention to Mormon missionaries, therefore there is no point in sending out Mormon missionaries.

 

[eight bits]

Also the Mormons have the greatest collection of family trees in the whole world. They go to all the other religions and ask for help to do so. They have to, since this information is stored in their churches...

Which information they share widely, both online and through brick-and-mortar genealogical centers. There is a religious test for access to some things (which appear to be group subscriptions to private resources which they buy), but an enormous amount is free for all.

That's not a reason to join the religion, nor to wish their missionaries good hunting, but it is a reason to thank them for making most of their resources avaialble to heathens like me. And thee, if you ever get interested in geneaology.

 

[RandFan]

Judah is but one of the twelve tribes of Israel, now scattered throughout the world. I am of Ephraim. LDS Missionaries are searching out Israel. However we are all children of our Heavenly Father and those who repent and choose the right are adopted through baptism.

1. I'll bet there many if not most Mormons who have been told they are descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel don't have any Israelite markers.
2. Religion, dividing people and exploiting tribalism for thousands of years. How many people have died throughout history simply because they were the wrong religion? Why can't we simply embrace our shared humanism?

 

[Apology]

I could never choose a religion that promotes hate, bigotry, and misogyny. And I tell the missionaries that come to my house just that.

So you're definitely an atheist, is that correct?

I've been reliably informed that if you tell them you're Catholic they will leave you alone.

I don't doubt the reliability of your informant, since JWs and Catholics have a long-time beef with each other and are fond of accusing each other of being Satan's minions. However, in my particular neighborhood, which has a high proportion of Spanish-speaking Catholics, their patter seems to be aimed at "saving" (or stealing) Catholics away from their church. It's really quite obvious; they aren't even very interested in talking to me since I don't speak Spanish. In addition, they like to discuss the concept of Hell and nitpick the Catholic concept of it and generally talk smack about Catholic theology and congregations.

They're representing themselves as a kinder, gentler Christianity---their church doesn't send sinners to fire, brimstone, and eternal torture, because eternal distance from God is punishment enough. They've also really upgraded their pamphlets. No more cavemen chasing dinosaurs with spears---all the pamphlets they've shown me lately focus on contemporary problems and give reasonable and sensible solutions before they fall all apart and start nattering on about God. For instance, they recently snuck one about debt and credit onto my screen door when I wasn't home. It talked about budgeting and credit counseling for an entire page of the tri-fold pamphlet before it veered off into talking about how covetuousness was a sin and how a person living a modest, debt-free life was beloved of God, etc.

As a matter of fact, now that I'm thinking of it, maybe this is a pilot program by the JWs in order to see if they can make any headway with Spanish-speaking Catholics. That would explain their constant canvassing in spite of the fact that they've been coming around every week for over a year. I've seen a few familiar faces leading newbies around the neighborhood too, going over the exact same ground that they've covered less than a week before. Perhaps that's what they're up to, those sneaky bastards.

 

[bruto]

I've been reliably informed that if you tell them you're Catholic they will leave you alone.

My wife, a very lapsed Catholic, but with a very Catholic name and a convincingly Hispanic appearance, says that this is true if you tell them you're a devout Catholic. That's a wall they daren't climb over. But a lapsed Catholic is like a mouse to a cat.

 

[Craig4]

My wife, a very lapsed Catholic, but with a very Catholic name and a convincingly Hispanic appearance, says that this is true if you tell them you're a devout Catholic. That's a wall they daren't climb over. But a lapsed Catholic is like a mouse to a cat.

I'm guessing telling them you are a devout anything will warn them off. I don't because they usually seem like nice young people and deserve better than being fooled into wasting their youth on the lies they've been deluded into spewing. I want to engage them and attack their misplaced faith.

 

[RandFan]

I'm guessing telling them you are a devout anything will warn them off. I don't because they usually seem like nice young people and deserve better than being fooled into wasting their youth on the lies they've been deluded into spewing. I want to engage them and attack their misplaced faith.

While on my mission I had the opportunity to spend time with a professor of theology. He was at the time an atheist. He was extremely polite and allowed us to finish our lesson. Once completed he explained why he thought a number of our claims about the Mormon version of the Protestant Reformation were problematic. He asked us some questions about the reformers and it was obvious to everyone that we were simply repeating a script. I knew a lot more than the average person about John Wycliffe, Jan Hus, Martin Luther and John Calvin but I clearly did not understand them the way this man did. He mostly asked us questions and then provided answers. He laid it out in such a way as to cast doubt that the Mormon Church was intention of it all (as Mormon Doctrine holds).

After our meeting I felt for the first time that my ministarial certificate was merely a formality. A few weeks at BYU in the Mission "training" center had simply left me capable of reciting propaganda. I still believed in the Mormon Church but thought that it was misleading to call us ministers. I don't think one has to have a PHD in theology to be a missionary but I do think that the formal dress, name tags, titles (Elder), etc., lend a false air of authority to teenagers who are just door to door sales people.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think an ordained minister with a PHD in philosophy has any real authority beyond an understanding of religious history and theological principles. A theologian will at least understand the different controversies in depth and also understand the consensus of authorities as to what is somewhat more reasonably claimed when it comes to Christianity and what doesn't. I was very impressed by Bart Ehrman when explained the difference between laity and clergy. Very, very different things. Most clergy do not believe that Christ said everything attributed to him in the Bible. Most will concede that the Bible is not inerrant (one of the dumbest things anyone ever believed).

 

[bruto]

I'm guessing telling them you are a devout anything will warn them off. I don't because they usually seem like nice young people and deserve better than being fooled into wasting their youth on the lies they've been deluded into spewing. I want to engage them and attack their misplaced faith.

I can understand the point of view, but I'm glad to let someone else take the burden. Most of the evangelists I've met are so steeped in the anti-rational and trained to deflect argument that there's not much result except for wasted time. I sometimes wish I had my mother's skill at both argument and textual memory, so I could pulverize them, but I'm not that good. I don't pretend to be anything, but I tell them quite firmly, with politeness dispensable if need be, that I am not interested in their message. In a previous location I actually put a sign on the front door telling them not even to knock. It seemed to work. The older I get the less patience I have for some things.

My previous comment was simply to point out that to those hunting for chinks in the spiritual armor, there is a significant difference in what sort of Catholic you are.

 

[Chernobyl X1]

To the OP, It's been a week now. I'm curious if this exchange has happened or not? An update would be welcomed.

 

[Craig4]

I can understand the point of view, but I'm glad to let someone else take the burden. Most of the evangelists I've met are so steeped in the anti-rational and trained to deflect argument that there's not much result except for wasted time. I sometimes wish I had my mother's skill at both argument and textual memory, so I could pulverize them, but I'm not that good. I don't pretend to be anything, but I tell them quite firmly, with politeness dispensable if need be, that I am not interested in their message. In a previous location I actually put a sign on the front door telling them not even to knock. It seemed to work. The older I get the less patience I have for some things.

My previous comment was simply to point out that to those hunting for chinks in the spiritual armor, there is a significant difference in what sort of Catholic you are.

Yeah, I'd guess that if you said you were a lapsed Catholic it would indicate to them you were open to auditioning other irrational beliefs.

I don't want to present myself as some crusader for rationality. I only stop to offer battle once engaged, if I have time.

 

[Orphia Nay]

To the OP, It's been a week now. I'm curious if this exchange has happened or not? An update would be welcomed.

Sorry I haven't updated sooner.

The Mormons came back to visit my son's house as they'd said they would do.

All in all, my son thought they were nice people. However, they were obviously sticking to a script.

My son challenged them on the archaeological anomalies, and they replied "the BOM hasn't changed".

???

My son then countered with the fact that Joseph Smith changed the book after he'd married 4 wives.

I can't even remember what my son said they said, it was that unrelated to the question.

Basically, my son asked good questions, and the Mormons didn't have answers - just words by rote.

My son said they were very nice and they blessed my son and his friends when they left, which my son thought was a "genuine moment, although it meant nothing".

 

[Janadele]

...
The Mormons came back to visit my son's house as they'd said they would do.
All in all, my son thought they were nice people. However, they were obviously sticking to a script... My son said they were very nice and they blessed my son and his friends when they left, which my son thought was a "genuine moment, although it meant nothing".

It meant far more than they or you know. Your sons were fortunate indeed for the Lord's representatives to have left a blessing, and to have favoured them with two visits.

...
Participants in this thread should also realise that LDS Missionaries have a message to deliver to the world from Jesus Christ. Debate and contention is not their reason nor their assignment. The world is to be given the chance to accept or reject this message from Jesus Christ, and therefore cannot say they did not bring the consequences of that choice upon themselves.

 

[Pixel42]

If these two young men were "the Lord's representatives" why couldn't they provide sensible answers to straightforward questions?

If, as you say, there are consequences for rejecting the message they bring, why is the message so silly and obviously bogus that you need to be a credulous idiot to accept it?

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

If these two young men were "the Lord's representatives" why couldn't they provide sensible answers to straightforward questions?

If, as you say, there are consequences for rejecting the message they bring, why is the message so silly and obviously bogus that you need to be a credulous idiot to accept it?

Maybe God's just really bad at presentation. Maybe He's the Lionel Hutz^WP of metaphysics, turning self-evident conclusions into losing causes. Maybe He wants to keep heaven nice and quiet, not the tourist trap it would turn into if it was too easy to get into.

(Actually, my favourite hypothesis along these lines is that Jesus was cursed like Cassandra, so that even though he was obviously the Son of God, there just wasn't any sort of sensible evidence for that and lots of reasons to doubt it.)

 

[Orphia Nay]

It meant far more than they or you know. Your sons were fortunate indeed for the Lord's representatives to have left a blessing, and to have favoured them with two visits.

Are you saying you know what it meant?

How do you know it meant far more than nothing?

 

[Chernobyl X1]

It meant far more than they or you know. Your sons were fortunate indeed for the Lord's representatives to have left a blessing, and to have favoured them with two visits.

So are you saying that blessings aren't a dime a dozen with missionaries?
Also are you saying missionaries usually won't visit the same place twice, even after they say they are coming back?

 

[RandFan]

If these two young men were "the Lord's representatives" why couldn't they provide sensible answers to straightforward questions?

If, as you say, there are consequences for rejecting the message they bring, why is the message so silly and obviously bogus that you need to be a credulous idiot to accept it?

Agreed. Why did the most perfect book not look at all like the most perfect book? Why does an omnipotent and omniscient being need to rationalize and excuse the books many apparent anachronisms, wrong words (bison as opposed to cow).

The book is perfect except for when it isn't. Then it's not god's fault for correcting the mistakes. FWIW: I was a manager for a published magazine. I had the right to sign off on printer edits (changes made at the printer). If I made a mistake and authorized an edit that the Company disagreed with or did not like, they still had to bear responsibility as I was their representative). They could not get out of the bill by saying that the fault was mine and not theirs. This notion of "if there are errors they are the errors of man" is pretty silly given that Mormons claim an omniscient and omnipotent god was the head of the church and speaking directly to the prophet.

 

[Craig4]

It meant far more than they or you know. Your sons were fortunate indeed for the Lord's representatives to have left a blessing, and to have favoured them with two visits.

Why did your god pawn of something so important on a couple of kids barely out of puberty? I sincerely hope their failure here causes the two lads to consider what a bill of goods they have been sold.

 

[Cleon]

It meant far more than they or you know. Your sons were fortunate indeed for the Lord's representatives to have left a blessing, and to have favoured them with two visits.

Janadele, unlike most of the other posters here, I'm not an atheist. So I'd like you to take this statement to heart:

I honestly believe that if the Almighty were to send personal representatives of His to my door, they would be better equipped to handle my questions without insulting my intelligence.