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The Mormons' Challenge

Mormon's stopped coming to my house when I decided to answer the door in a [fake] bloody cooking apron and greeted them with "Howdy, Sorry about the mess, Just sacrificing a lamb to the dark lord, What can I do for you fine gentlemen?"
 
I am fairly certain that the success rate of converting people with these visits is very low. But, they do it anyway, usually with young members, and usually in pairs. Why is that?

I suspect these visits have more to do with re-affirming the young members' commitment to the church, and it is less about any actual desire to convert people.

Issuing a challenge like this is part of that process. Because, any answer you give: They will most likely reject or wave off. Then that allows them to re-affirm their faith, because you could not beat their challenge.

Any "whoppers" you think you might have, such as the examples in this thread, are NOT likely to work, either. They can wave them off, or get an official answer from the Church that they can accept.

Assuming my hypothesis is true: If you genuinely wish to help them learn something, the best bet is to undermine the re-affirmation process, before it has a chance to happen.

To do that, do NOT answer their challenge directly. Instead, start with the diplomatic approach that I outlined in my previous post, here.

Tell them the challenge is unnecessarily combative. Inform them that both sides could live in peace and harmony, and mutual tolerance for each other. You can respect their faith, as long as they respect your lack of it.

Do NOT try to convince them that Mormonism is "wrong". Focus on positive traits on what you think is a better state of mind. Let the values of your own ideas stand on their own merits, instead of trying to take theirs down.

For example: I would tell them that I found a devotion to empirical results to be more reliable, for my own needs. Appeals to scripture and authority are certainly not going to change that for me. Because, I find value in having authorities challenged on occasion.

But, as long as they remain nice people, they can follow their books as much as they please. The only "wrong" people are the jerks: those who are mean, nasty, and violent towards other people, regardless of whether they are religiously faithful or not.

You could even, gently, inform them that their challenge perhaps inadvertently made them seem like jerks to lots of people. It was NOT their intention to be jerks, for sure, but if they really wish to be pleasant people, they would be better off not trying to spread their ideas to others, in this door-to-door manner.

And, perhaps if they stick around long enough, perhaps you can even go into my hypothesis with them: You could, eventually, tell them that you suspect this challenge isn't really about conversion, but about confirming the faith of the challenger. They probably won't agree, at first. But, if you point out the evidence that makes you suspicious of this, perhaps it will give them a little something to think about. If you do it carefully, enough, anyway.

You might not have beaten their challenge, directly, but you would undermine the whole reason they issued it, in the first place. Which, in my opinion, is an even better victory!
 
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Too much to list, honestly.

The basic fact of the matter is that the entire Book of Mormon hypothesis has been almost entirely contradicted by the archaeological and written records of the Americas.
 
I am fairly certain that the success rate of converting people with these visits is very low.
I am one to be included in the success you refer to Wowbagger... plus I remain eternally grateful that two dedicated humble young men volunteered their services to travel at their own expenses to a country far from their home and homeland to knock on my door :)
 
Oh, so much Mormonism so little time.

I would start by asking about a story generally known as The Sword of Laban. The moral of the story is essentially that murder is sometimes appropriate if faith is at stake, and that God sometimes commands his followers to kill in the name of faith.

Killing by God's command is a flawed philosophy, one that even within Mormon history could be shown to be a key idea in a violent epistemology. The Book of Mormon justifies violence for a good cause, and is a violent book written for a time that accepted violence as a solution to problems - especially of faith.

Another flawed teaching of the book is its outright opposition of an era known as the Enlightenment. You could say that the Book of Mormon is a reactionary response to the culture that brought about thinkers like Whitman or Thoreau. There is little room in Mormonism for nuances of allegory, and the Book of Mormon stands as a firm testament against the critical reading of scripture. The generally accepted Christian scholarship that there were two Isaiahs not one, must be firmly rejected. Jesus was born under a blazing bright star, not some obscure alignment of celestial events. The world was literally dark for three days, Jesus descended from the sky in great glory, God speaks to us today.

If you do not believe these things literally, you are not viewed as a True Believer.

(I think that Hitchens 'God is not Great' was a better read than The God Delusion). :-)
 
I don't have it in my heart to be mean or rude to the Mormons.

I've had some nice conversations with the young men in dark suits. I invite them in, offer them a glass of cold water on a hot day, explain that I don't need another copy of their book as the one given to me by a good friend in the '80s serves me just fine. I ask them about their mission, and where they're from and try to be just a generally nice person to them. I explain that my religious needs are being met just fine, thank them for stopping by and wish them well on the way out. I feel a little bit bad for them, with their big adventure leading them to my pokey little town instead of somewhere more interesting.

The Witnesses, on the other hand, get to stand on my porch with the hot afternoon sun baking their necks. On really hot days I'll string the conversation out and ask lots of questions.
 
I don't have it in my heart to be mean or rude to the Mormons.

I've had some nice conversations with the young men in dark suits. I invite them in, offer them a glass of cold water on a hot day, explain that I don't need another copy of their book as the one given to me by a good friend in the '80s serves me just fine. I ask them about their mission, and where they're from and try to be just a generally nice person to them. I explain that my religious needs are being met just fine, thank them for stopping by and wish them well on the way out. I feel a little bit bad for them, with their big adventure leading them to my pokey little town instead of somewhere more interesting.

The Witnesses, on the other hand, get to stand on my porch with the hot afternoon sun baking their necks. On really hot days I'll string the conversation out and ask lots of questions.


Yeah, I have met a number of Mormons going round in pairs here in Japan. I have always found them to be very polite and friendly and I have no problems with them at all. I don't think they convert many Japanese to Mormonism, but I think they are generally viewed as pretty non-threatening.
 
Some young mormons just knocked on my son's door, trying to spread the word.

My son and his housemates are atheists. They scoffed at the mormons' beliefs and told them they are atheists.

The mormons proposed a challenge - they gave my son the Book of Mormon and told him to read it, and the mormons will come back next Sunday and each side will give their best reasons as to why they are right and the others are wrong.

My son asked me for help in finding the best counter-arguments to Mormonism, and the best reasons to be atheist.

Can you help with the counter-arguments? I'm not well-versed in Mormonism.

Best counter argument ? You only trust the primary source. They better bring back the golden plate to you ;).
 
I don't have it in my heart to be mean or rude to the Mormons.

I've had some nice conversations with the young men in dark suits. I invite them in, offer them a glass of cold water on a hot day, explain that I don't need another copy of their book as the one given to me by a good friend in the '80s serves me just fine. I ask them about their mission, and where they're from and try to be just a generally nice person to them. I explain that my religious needs are being met just fine, thank them for stopping by and wish them well on the way out. I feel a little bit bad for them, with their big adventure leading them to my pokey little town instead of somewhere more interesting.

The Witnesses, on the other hand, get to stand on my porch with the hot afternoon sun baking their necks. On really hot days I'll string the conversation out and ask lots of questions.
What (in your opinion) is the difference between Mormons at your door and JWs at your door? In my opinion, both are unwanted solicitors and get treated the same. I just cut them off before they get very far into their speech with a firm "not interested" because that seems kinder than letting them do their whole spiel and then telling them. I do the same with kids selling candy bars and magazine subscriptions.

Not Girl Scouts though. Those cookies are pretty awesome.
 
ApolloGnomon said:
I don't have it in my heart to be mean or rude to the Mormons.
Agreed. The ones I've known haven't been pushy--in fact, they've been extremely helpful gentlemen. I travel a lot, and back in our old apartment they'd help my wife bring in groceries and such. I'll grant you they're doing it to show how awesome Mormons and Mormonism is, but I have no problem with that. If your religion makes you a better person, I consider that a good thing.

The difference between Mormons and JWs is that Mormons have never broken into my home.

As for the challange, it's a trap. You're talking about a group of people that regularly studies the literature, giving you a week to study it. You're simply not going to come up with anything they haven't heard before--not because they have self-serving justifications either. If I gave you a copy of an isotopic geochem book to read for a week and debate me on an issue you'd fail miserably. You can't learn my side in a week, not considering the fact that I've had 8 years to study it. Regardless of the validity of Mormonism, they know more and will make you look foolish in any debate because they simply know more about the subject under consideration than you.
 
I am one to be included in the success you refer to Wowbagger... plus I remain eternally grateful that two dedicated humble young men volunteered their services to travel at their own expenses to a country far from their home and homeland to knock on my door :)

I would approach this as a great opportunity to save the poor, deluded Mormons from irrationality. It is factually incorrect to say there was cultivated barley in the pre-Colombian Americas. It if factually incorrect to say that Native Americans are descendants from any tribes in Israel. It is factually incorrect to say that the Book of Abraham (also called the Pearl of Great Price) even mentions or is tied to the biblical Abraham. It's also incorrect to say that there were horses in the New World. Focus on the areas where Smith was just a sloppy fact checker. When confronted with the errors in their religion they may see the light.

These kids need help Orphia Nay's son and his friends help to see the truth and the should provide it.
 
What (in your opinion) is the difference between Mormons at your door and JWs at your door?

Willingness to engage in polite off-script conversation and go away without excessive prompting.

Also, Mormons are young, excited to be out in the world and they're guests in my town. In general, all the Mormons I've known socially are just nice people who will open their door (and refrigerator) to guests. Karmically, these kids are reaping the benefit of others who have come to my attention before them. I don't want the product they're selling, but they seem to derive some benefit from it. They respect the fact that I have a competing product that meets my needs.

Witnessess are like a used car salesman who comes to your door to shove a rusty junker with mismatched fenders at you. They're not guests in my town, I feel no compunction to be polite to them. I've known people who grew up in Witness families and the "any minute now" apocalyptic mindset creates messed-up people who don't learn to plan for the long term. Also, they are generally neurotic about wanting to get to their version of heaven but knowing deep in their hearts they themselves are not one of the 144,000. It creates bad behavior /guilt and atonement loops. Their product does not appear to benefit the consumers in any degree I value. And they quote random snippets of Bible and then tell you "what it means" that has little connection with any logical parsing of the text, which in my opinion is a form of lying both to themselves and others.
 
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Mormons? Challenge them to read No Man Knows My History. After they've absorbed that, it'll be time to talk.
 
Willingness to engage in polite off-script conversation and go away without excessive prompting.

Also, Mormons are young, excited to be out in the world and they're guests in my town. In general, all the Mormons I've known socially are just nice people who will open their door (and refrigerator) to guests. Karmically, these kids are reaping the benefit of others who have come to my attention before them. I don't want the product they're selling, but they seem to derive some benefit from it. They respect the fact that I have a competing product that meets my needs.

Witnessess are like a used car salesman who comes to your door to shove a rusty junker with mismatched fenders at you. They're not guests in my town, I feel no compunction to be polite to them. I've known people who grew up in Witness families and the "any minute now" apocalyptic mindset creates messed-up people who don't learn to plan for the long term. Also, they are generally neurotic about wanting to get to their version of heaven but knowing deep in their hearts they themselves are not one of the 144,000. It creates bad behavior /guilt and atonement loops. Their product does not appear to benefit the consumers in any degree I value. And they quote random snippets of Bible and then tell you "what it means" that has little connection with any logical parsing of the text, which in my opinion is a form of lying both to themselves and others.
Fair enough. Your explanation makes sense to me. One thing I noted that's different between JWs and Mormons is that Mormons are either far less persistent or they keep some sort of list of houses that simply aren't interested in hearing it. It's possible to make the Mormons go away without being rude or aggressive, but the JWs will come back again and again and again no matter how many times you tell them you're not interested.

The difference between Mormons and JWs is that Mormons have never broken into my home.

Oh come on now, you can't just drop this in the thread and not tell us the story!!! :eye-poppi

Don't tease us, give it up. How did JWs break into your house?
 
Apology said:
Oh come on now, you can't just drop this in the thread and not tell us the story!!!

Don't tease us, give it up. How did JWs break into your house?
Well, bear in mind that this is second-hand info; I was really young, 2 or 3, at the time. They came in through the back door after Mom told them to leave. Back home we didn't generally lock doors if we were home (small town; odds were, you'd be robbing your cousin and your grandmother would come after you before the cops could). They started talking to us kids, and Mom apparently got upset. She came into the room with a double-barreled 12-gauge and ran them out of the house. We didn't see any JWs on our street again (they all lived on the oher side of town) until high school, when a girl mistook friendliness with being open to converting.
 
Well, bear in mind that this is second-hand info; I was really young, 2 or 3, at the time. They came in through the back door after Mom told them to leave. Back home we didn't generally lock doors if we were home (small town; odds were, you'd be robbing your cousin and your grandmother would come after you before the cops could). They started talking to us kids, and Mom apparently got upset. She came into the room with a double-barreled 12-gauge and ran them out of the house. We didn't see any JWs on our street again (they all lived on the oher side of town) until high school, when a girl mistook friendliness with being open to converting.

Now we know how to get rid of them LOL!!! TYVM, good story. I'd be mad as hell if religious solicitors, after being told to leave, approached my kids. I'd be doubly pissed if they actually came into my house to get at my kids.
 

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