The Money Masters

TruthSeeker1234 said:
Yes, I will trade you 1 billion truthseekers for your car.

If that's not enough, how about a 1 trillion truthseeker note?

How about 1 quintillion, come on, that's fair!
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Wait, are you talking about U.S. Currency, or made up "monopoly" money? Are you sayin they are worth the same thing?
 
defaultdotxbe said:
except the paper money was worth the same as the gold that was taken, a more apt analogy would be taking someones car and giving them a coupon to go get a new car
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Or, taking their car and replacing it with a newer lighter version that offered the same performance, but was much harder to alter without it being obvious.

-Gumboot
 
I began by pointing out that money is crucial to society.

Government coerced paper fiat money does function, just not nearly as well as a gold-backed currency would function. The market tells us this, as a world-wide gold standard evolved spontaneously.

The purpose of instituting a fiat money monopoly is obvious: Those who enjoy the monopoly can print money costlessly and enrich themselves, in real terms, at the expense of those who do not have the right to print money.

Do you understand this wealth transfer mechanism, or shall I explain it?
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Ask yourselves:

How on earth did we come to value little slips of paper?
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The same way we came to value shiny rocks and metals.



If you had a nice house and I offered you a paper with the words "one million truthseekers" written on it, would you accept?

Of course not.

What if I changed it to "two million truthseekers"?

Would it make any difference what number I wrote on it?

Of course not.
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Nope nope and nope. Now if I offered you $1,000,000 for your house would you take it?

Could free people ever come to value irredeemable pieces of paper?
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So Dollars are irredeemable? I have a bucket full of change that dissagrees



How then did this occur?
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July 6, 1785.
 
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TruthSeeker1234 said:
I began by pointing out that money is crucial to society.

Government coerced paper fiat money does function, just not nearly as well as a gold-backed currency would function. The market tells us this, as a world-wide gold standard evolved spontaneously.

The purpose of instituting a fiat money monopoly is obvious: Those who enjoy the monopoly can print money costlessly and enrich themselves, in real terms, at the expense of those who do not have the right to print money.

Do you understand this wealth transfer mechanism, or shall I explain it?
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So paper money has value. I'm glad we settled that.
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
The purpose of instituting a fiat money monopoly is obvious: Those who enjoy the monopoly can print money costlessly and enrich themselves, in real terms, at the expense of those who do not have the right to print money.
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That didn't seem to work too well for Germany...

-Gumboot
 
defaultdotxbe said:
the value federal reserve notes is backed by the stability of the US economy

what is backing your 1 trillion truthseeker notes?
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Of course my truthseeker notes are worthless. US dollars have some value, but only because they used to be backed by gold. As Ludwig von Mises proved with his regression analysis, for any paper money to be valued, it must have at one time been backed by a commodity. Since going off the gold standard, the value of the US dollar has fallen to less than 1% of its original value.

The purpose of going off gold was to establish a monopoly over money, a brilliant method of self-enrichment.
 
gumboot said:
That didn't seem to work too well for Germany...

-Gumboot
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Excellent point, Gumboot. There is hope for you. Inflation is very dangerous. Inflation (coin clipping) brought on the fall of the Roman empire. The Romans eventually devalued their money so much that merchants no longer accepted it, much of Europe reverted to forms of barter, and civilization (which depends quite crucially on a well functioning money) collapsed.
 
imstellar28 said:
In 1996 approximately 40% of the United States budget went to the payment of interest on the national debt. The replacement of Federal Reserve Notes by United States Notes would eliminate interest payments to the private Federal Reserve System and would save 40% of the budget.
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Now you are just making crap up. Of course my macro professor worked at the Fed, so I have an advantage.

The US federal budget in 1996 was $1.56 trillion.

Interest paid was $277 billion.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/sheets/hist03z1.xls

That is not "approximately" 40%, that is 17.7%, so you are off by more than 100%

It is smaller now BTW, about 17%.
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Of course my truthseeker notes are worthless. US dollars have some value, but only because they used to be backed by gold. As Ludwig von Mises proved with his regression analysis, for any paper money to be valued, it must have at one time been backed by a commodity. Since going off the gold standard, the value of the US dollar has fallen to less than 1% of its original value.

The purpose of going off gold was to establish a monopoly over money, a brilliant method of self-enrichment.
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Ah so we should use gold! So If I want to buy a $150,000 house I have to bring enough gold to cover the house (about 42 pounds), Hire a guard or two, map out the route to the seller, buy insurance for the gold, or I could write a check.
 
Redtail said:
The same way we came to value shiny rocks and metals.



Nope nope and nope. Now if I offered you $1,000,000 for your house would you take it?

So Dollars are irredeemable? I have a bucket full of change that dissagrees




July 6, 1785.
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No, we did not come to value slips of paper the same way we value gold. There is a great demand for gold on the free market, there is essentially no demand for slips of paper. The demand arose because slips of paper were actually warehouse reciepts, redeemable in gold. People began trading them as money, only because they were redeemable.

The only way unbacked paper became money was through force. Period. Government passed a law (in the US in 1913) which required acceptance of paper money.

Suppose I forced you to accept truthseekers as payment. And I, and only I was allowed to print them up. Would that seem right to you?

Then why to accept this behaviour from you government, in collusion with the banking cartel known as the Fed?
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Excellent point, Gumboot. There is hope for you. Inflation is very dangerous. Inflation (coin clipping) brought on the fall of the Roman empire. The Romans eventually devalued their money so much that merchants no longer accepted it, much of Europe reverted to forms of barter, and civilization (which depends quite crucially on a well functioning money) collapsed.
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Rome collapsed because it over-extended itself and was rife with corruption. By the 4th and 5th Centuries over half the Roman calendar consisted of public holidays.

They also had 200,000 soldiers trying to hold a frontier that required 2 million... and lastly they lost Britain (the breadbasket of the Empire) when local commanders decided to make bids for Emperor and took their soldiers with them.

-Gumboot

-Gumboot
 
Redtail said:
Ah so we should use gold! So If I want to buy a $150,000 house I have to bring enough gold to cover the house (about 42 pounds), Hire a guard or two, map out the route to the seller, buy insurance for the gold, or I could write a check.
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Stop the strawman.

We should use whatever the market dictates. The market chose gold, not me. There is nothing wrong with convenient money substitutes, such as paper money, checks, or computer digits, so long as these substitutes are redeemable in gold. That is not my opinion, that is the result of centuries of evolution on the market.

On the market, non-redeemable fiat money could not exist. It only exists through the force of government, and that is a conspiracy.
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
No, we did not come to value slips of paper the same way we value gold. There is a great demand for gold on the free market, there is essentially no demand for slips of paper. The demand arose because slips of paper were actually warehouse reciepts, redeemable in gold. People began trading them as money, only because they were redeemable.

The only way unbacked paper became money was through force. Period. Government passed a law (in the US in 1913) which required acceptance of paper money.

Suppose I forced you to accept truthseekers as payment. And I, and only I was allowed to print them up. Would that seem right to you?

Then why to accept this behaviour from you government, in collusion with the banking cartel known as the Fed?
Click to expand...

You keep forgeting that your truthseekers are worth nothing while the Dollar, pound Franc, etc do have value.

And long ago someone decided gold was cool. You can't eat, drink, or breath it but it sure is shiny.
 
gumboot said:
Rome collapsed because it over-extended itself and was rife with corruption. By the 4th and 5th Centuries over half the Roman calendar consisted of public holidays.

They also had 200,000 soldiers trying to hold a frontier that required 2 million... and lastly they lost Britain (the breadbasket of the Empire) when local commanders decided to make bids for Emperor and took their soldiers with them.

-Gumboot

-Gumboot
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That partly explains military loss, but does not explain the disintgration of material society. For this, you need to look at money which ceased to function.

I would also argue that the extravagant over-extended lifestyles of those in power were also made possible by inflation, as inflation is a method of transferring real wealth to oneself without having to work. Get it?
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Stop the strawman.

We should use whatever the market dictates. The market chose gold, not me. There is nothing wrong with convenient money substitutes, such as paper money, checks, or computer digits, so long as these substitutes are redeemable in gold. That is not my opinion, that is the result of centuries of evolution on the market.

On the market, non-redeemable fiat money could not exist. It only exists through the force of government, and that is a conspiracy.
Click to expand...

And it's not a strawman to compare money you made up to the dollar and imply it has the same worth. Also I own gold coins that I got with paper money.
 
Redtail said:
You keep forgeting that your truthseekers are worth nothing while the Dollar, pound Franc, etc do have value.

And long ago someone decided gold was cool. You can't eat, drink, or breath it but it sure is shiny.
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Nonsense. No one decided gold was cool. The market decided gold was cool.
 
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