The Money Masters

[Anti-sophist]

So they are paying for the money with money?

No. That's not how money that is printed makes it into circulation. You have absolutely no idea how money makes it from printing into circulation, do you? Nor do you seem to understand the difference between printing money and money creation. You seem to be under the impression that they print money, bring it to your local bank, and the bank loans it out to you, for a profit.

 

[VespaGuy]

Because some people are desperate to live near a cheap knock off of New York.

Considering Boston existed first, I always considered New York an over-priced knock off of Boston.

 

[imstellar28]

In 1996 approximately 40% of the United States budget went to the payment of interest on the national debt. The replacement of Federal Reserve Notes by United States Notes would eliminate interest payments to the private Federal Reserve System and would save 40% of the budget.

If the system works, why is our national debt and inflation at record levels? Since 1791 our national debt has remained constant from year to year, yet in 1914 our debt started rising every year. Why is this?

Here is a list of the national debt every year from 1791-2000
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20030606.htm

 

[imstellar28]

No. That's not how money that is printed makes it into circulation. You have absolutely no idea how money makes it from printing into circulation, do you? Nor do you seem to understand the difference between printing money and money creation. You seem to be under the impression that they print money, bring it to your local bank, and the bank loans it out to you, for a profit.

How does it make it into circulation?

 

[Anti-sophist]

In 1996 approximately 40% of the United States budget went to the payment of interest on the national debt. The replacement of Federal Reserve Notes by United States Notes would eliminate interest payments to the private Federal Reserve System and would save 40% of the budget.

If the system works, why is our national debt and inflation at record levels? Since 1791 our national debt has remained constant from year to year, yet in 1914 our debt started rising every year. Why is this?

Here is a list of the national debt every year from 1791-2000
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20030606.htm

The inherent assumption that the national debt (or rather, any public debt) is entirely bad is flawed.

 

[Anti-sophist]

How does it make it into circulation?

As I understand it, the printing press that makes dollar bills has absolutely nothing to do with actual money creation. After cash is given to the Fed by banks, they go through the bills and replace the bad ones. It's a 0-sum transaction. And even when they decide they need more currency out and about, they are not "creating" the money here. They are just adding cash (not money) into circulation.

Again, as I understand it, new money makes it into circulation via government securities which are bought by you and me and banks and everyone else, and then the government spends the money we are loaning them with the expectation that the government can pay us back.

 

[imstellar28]

As I understand it, the printing press that makes dollar bills has absolutely nothing to do with actual money creation. After cash is given to the Fed by banks, they go through the bills and replace the bad ones. It's a 0-sum transaction. And even when they decide they need more currency out and about, they are not "creating" the money here. They are just adding cash (not money) into circulation.

Again, as I understand it, new money makes it into circulation via government securities which are bought by you and me and banks and everyone else, and then the government spends the money we are loaning them with the expectation that the government can pay us back.

When you say "you and me and banks" you just mean banks right?

and when you say "bought" what are they buying it with?

and when you say "we are loaning them" you mean the "banks are loaning them?"

 

[chipmunk stew]

the private Federal Reserve System

You keep saying that as though it's true. It's not private.

 

[gorgg]

In 1996 approximately 40% of the United States budget went to the payment of interest on the national debt. The replacement of Federal Reserve Notes by United States Notes would eliminate interest payments to the private Federal Reserve System and would save 40% of the budget.

If the system works, why is our national debt and inflation at record levels? Since 1791 our national debt has remained constant from year to year, yet in 1914 our debt started rising every year. Why is this?

Here is a list of the national debt every year from 1791-2000

The public debt is not owned entirely by the Fed.
Less than 10% is owned by the Fed. You can calculate the exact numbers here:
federalreserve.gov/pubs/supplement/2007/03/table1_41.htm

The interest the government pays on the securities is for the biggest part returned by the Fed. In 2005 for instance the government paid about $29 billion interest on the securities owned by the Fed. The Fed returned to the Treasury $21,4 billion.

Every time the Fed enlarges M0, the government gets free money.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

All gold is forcibly confiscated from law-abiding citizens/quote]
then what the hell is my high school ring made out of? and my mothers wedding ring? and all my grandmothers jewelry?

i think you mean to say that gold coins were confiscated, but i think those belonged to the government in the first place, just like my debit card belongs to my bank

In 1933, in America, it became a felony to possess monetary gold, including gold coins and gold bullion. Small exceptions were made for jewelry and the like. People were required to send all of their gold into the government, and they were given pieces of paper in exchange. Those who refused were indeed jailed. The only reason that you could say the gold coins "belonged" to the government, was that the government has forcibly monopolized coinage and paper money 20 years prior.

On the market, money is a commodity. Confiscating the people's gold and replacing it with paper is no different than confiscating their cars and giving them pictures of cars. It is theft.

 

[332nd]

In 1933, in America, it became a felony to possess monetary gold, including gold coins and gold bullion. Small exceptions were made for jewelry and the like. People were required to send all of their gold into the government, and they were given pieces of paper in exchange. Those who refused were indeed jailed. The only reason that you could say the gold coins "belonged" to the government, was that the government has forcibly monopolized coinage and paper money 20 years prior.

On the market, money is a commodity. Confiscating the people's gold and replacing it with paper is no different than confiscating their cars and giving them pictures of cars. It is theft.

Except you can use the paper to purchase goods and services just like the gold, but you can't drive a picture of a car.

 

[imstellar28]

You keep saying that as though it's true. It's not private.

The Federal Reserve System is a quasi-governmental banking system composed of (1) a presidentially-appointed Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System in Washington, D.C.; (2) the Federal Open Market Committee; (3) 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation; and (4) numerous private member banks, which own varying amounts of stock in the regional Federal Reserve Banks. Ben Bernanke serves as the current Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

Ask yourselves:

How on earth did we come to value little slips of paper?

If you had a nice house and I offered you a paper with the words "one million truthseekers" written on it, would you accept?

Of course not.

What if I changed it to "two million truthseekers"?

Would it make any difference what number I wrote on it?

Of course not.

Could free people ever come to value irredeemable pieces of paper?

Of course not.

How then did this occur?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

In 1933, in America, it became a felony to possess monetary gold

All gold is forcibly confiscated from law-abiding citizens

can we see the difference?

The only reason that you could say the gold coins "belonged" to the government, was that the government has forcibly monopolized coinage and paper money 20 years prior.

so you agree the gold coinage did belong to the government and not the people? good, at least thats settled

On the market, money is a commodity. Confiscating the people's gold and replacing it with paper is no different than confiscating their cars and giving them pictures of cars. It is theft.

except the paper money was worth the same as the gold that was taken, a more apt analogy would be taking someones car and giving them a coupon to go get a new car

 

[VespaGuy]

On the market, money is a commodity. Confiscating the people's gold and replacing it with paper is no different than confiscating their cars and giving them pictures of cars. It is theft.

I fail to see the analogy. My car serves a purpose - I use it for transportation. A picture of my car is useless for that purpose. Are you saying that paper money is useless? If so, would you mind mailing all of yours to me?

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

Except you can use the paper to purchase goods and services just like the gold, but you can't drive a picture of a car.

On the market, you cannot trade pieces of paper for much of anything. What happened was the government passed a law in 1913 which required people to accept Federal Reserve Notes in payment of debt, regardless of their wishes. People who refused were jailed.

 

[VespaGuy]

...one million truthseekers...

:::shiver:::

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

I fail to see the analogy. My car serves a purpose - I use it for transportation. A picture of my car is useless for that purpose. Are you saying that paper money is useless? If so, would you mind mailing all of yours to me?

Yes, I will trade you 1 billion truthseekers for your car.

If that's not enough, how about a 1 trillion truthseeker note?

How about 1 quintillion, come on, that's fair!

 

[imstellar28]

The public debt is not owned entirely by the Fed.
Less than 10% is owned by the Fed. You can calculate the exact numbers here:
federalreserve.gov/pubs/supplement/2007/03/table1_41.htm

The interest the government pays on the securities is for the biggest part returned by the Fed. In 2005 for instance the government paid about $29 billion interest on the securities owned by the Fed. The Fed returned to the Treasury $21,4 billion.

Every time the Fed enlarges M0, the government gets free money.

4,122.1 billion (almost 50%) is owed to Private Investors

What exactly is a private investor, would that include private banks?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Yes, I will trade you 1 billion truthseekers for your car.

If that's not enough, how about a 1 trillion truthseeker note?

How about 1 quintillion, come on, that's fair!

the value federal reserve notes is backed by the stability of the US economy

what is backing your 1 trillion truthseeker notes?