The Money Masters

Arkan_Wolfshade said:
Well, no, because you're now paying an extra $0.42/gallon on gas, an extra 5% state sales tax, and more property taxes.

TANSTAAFL
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Those are the taxes we already pay.......nothing is going to change there.


The income tax doesn't pay for any of our services, our other 140 existing taxes cover them just fine
 
imstellar28 said:
Heres what happens:

1. We need money so we ask the federal reserve to lend us some
2. The federal reserve prints money out of thin air (ever since 1970)
3. They give us the paper they just created out of thin air and charge us interest on it indefinitely knowing we can never pay it back.


Why not skip the middleman and print the money out of thin air ourselves? Or better yet, stop printing money out of thin air and achieve some fiscal responsibility by severely limiting the powers of the government.
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How would this limit the goveernment's power? If they can print as much money as they want, how would they be limited? How would this control inflation? Isn't this part of the reason that Germany struggled so badly after WWI?
 
I'll clear some of this up for you all.

A money monopoly is an efficient way to transfer real wealth away from productive citizens, and into the hands of the ones with the money monopoly.

For a primer on the origin of money, and how it was stolen from you, please see these two companion artilces:

http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/baker/baker2.html
http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/baker/baker1.html


I'll summarize the important steps.

1. Money is crucial to a functioning economy, a pure barter economy could do no better than primative agriculture, if that.

2. Money evolved privately, in response to the problems of barter.

3. Money is a commodity. Many things were used as money, all of them valuable commodities.

4. Through the competition of the market, gold and silver emerged as the best functioning money, due to the qualities inherent in precious metals (durability, divisibility, high demand, interchangeability, etc.)

5. Paper money only became valued because it was redeemable in gold or silver. Period. On the free market, there is absolutely NO demand for cute pieces of paper with pictures of dead presidents. None.

6. Printing paper money that is not backed by gold or silver is counterfeiting, the same way that printing a car title is counterfeiting if it is not backed by a real car.

7. The U.S. Federal Reserve act of 1913 monopolized the production of paper money, making it illegal for anyone else to print paper money, and forcing all citizens to accept Federal Reserve Notes as payment, whether they wanted to or not. Money was still redeemable in gold and silver.

8. In 1933, the U.S. government confiscated all of the monetary gold, and made it a felony to possess monetary gold. Citizens were imprisoned simply for attempting to hold on to their own gold coins.

9. After WWII, the "Bretton Woods" agreement further entrenched the fiat money system, upholding the illegality of monetary gold for citizens, while allowing foriegn governments and large banks to redeem dollars for gold.

10. In 1971, the U.S. "closed the gold window", now making dollars completely irredeemable for anything to anyone. Having completed the money takeover and monopolization process, possessing gold was once again made legal.


A money monopoly is an efficient way to transfer real wealth away from productive citizens, and into the hands of the ones with the money monopoly.

Any questions?
 
Disbelief said:
How would this limit the goveernment's power? If they can print as much money as they want, how would they be limited? How would this control inflation? Isn't this part of the reason that Germany struggled so badly after WWI?
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What is stopping the government from taking out as many loans as it wants now? Again the situation is exactly the same whether we are paying income tax or not.

Removing the income tax cuts off the purse strings to our pockets, but you also have to have legislation which dissolves many of the overbearing governmental agencies/programs, and adhere to printing money based on some kind of store of value.
 
screw it, lets start bartering in sheckles and shiny objects again...

TAM:)
 
Though an interesting discussion, the thread has taken a distinct turn away from the conspiracy aspects of the OP. Perhaps the thread would be better served in Politics and Current Events?
 
To return to the OP, while you may disagree as to whether there is a conspiracy of who precisely the banking elite is, or to the exact extent in which they control domestic and foreign affairs...

I don't see how you can deny that they have erected a system where the average laborer is doomed to be poor and they are guaranteed to profit.
 
I think it took a turn because the respondents here don't even believe that our system is problematic, and thus cannot consider that there could be someone behind it.
 
imstellar28 said:
Again, how does removing the income tax increase inflation? Inflation could increase or decrease either way.
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People have more money, they tend to spend more money. Items such as food, shelter, and services such as healthcare are necessities and the price will rise. Some prices will fall, but when it balances out what one is able to afford with one's new gotten tax free money will be about the same as they can afford with their taxed income now.
 
Pardalis said:
Of course for us Canadians it's meaningless.
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Actually if we go down we take you with us because y'all seem like a bunch of "I told you so's." It's a little know ammendment to our constitution called "The Maple Leaf Scuttling"
 
imstellar28 said:
Heres what happens:

1. We need money so we ask the federal reserve to lend us some
2. The federal reserve prints money out of thin air (ever since 1970)
3. They give us the paper they just created out of thin air and charge us interest on it indefinitely knowing we can never pay it back.


Why not skip the middleman and print the money out of thin air ourselves? Or better yet, stop printing money out of thin air and achieve some fiscal responsibility by severely limiting the powers of the government.
Click to expand...
No. Here's what happens (oversimplified):
1. The Federal Open Market Committee (most members appointed by the president) comes together and discusses the economic and financial conditions and what is the best action to undertake. (usually expand the money supply)
2. The FED purchases U.S. securities on the second market (Open Market Operations).
3. They pay these securities with printed money.
4. The interest on the securities minus the expenses of the Fed is returned to the Treasury.

Why not skip out the middleman?
Because governments tend to influence the economy when it suits them. Why burst a bubble if elections are coming? Why combat inflation when the government is the main beneficiary in the short term and disinflation will have a negative impact on the short term? etc.

The independence of central banks is crucial to make the system work and to have people trust it. Even minor signs that government is intervening can have serious implications.
 
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imstellar28 said:
To return to the OP, while you may disagree as to whether there is a conspiracy of who precisely the banking elite is, or to the exact extent in which they control domestic and foreign affairs...

I don't see how you can deny that they have erected a system where the average laborer is doomed to be poor and they are guaranteed to profit.
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imstellar28 said:
I think it took a turn because the respondents here don't even believe that our system is problematic, and thus cannot consider that there could be someone behind it.
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I have seen both sides of the spectrum. When I was between the ages of 16-19, I worked for minimum wage as a (1) Gas attendant, (2) Grave digger.

I now work as a Physician, and I make a very good living.

When I was younger I paid only 16-20% of my pay to income tax.

Now I pay 42-45% of my pay to income tax.

I do not like losing my hard earned cash to income tax, but I believe in the system. I also believe that when I worked as a gas attendant/grave digger, i was paid what I DESERVED, based on the AMOUNT OF SKILL required, and the amount of TRAINING/EDUCATION (none) required to perform my job.

TAM:)
 
Arkan_Wolfshade said:
Though an interesting discussion, the thread has taken a distinct turn away from the conspiracy aspects of the OP. Perhaps the thread would be better served in Politics and Current Events?
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Naw, it's still all about control of the monetary systems.
Read wut TruthSeeker1234 said...
Although I don't agree with him - I think a system backed by irredeemable notes can still work. As long as people agree with it and the government doesn't sell out the control over it. As it is right now it's evidently unsustainable, and we're going into a deep depression anytime soon. Perhaps the end of the dollar as well if the powers-that-be wish so.

Oh man, doesn't it look like a conspiracy theory? This ain't just politics, you know what I mean? Unless you think it's provable, and you're a CTer yourself. :eek:

gorgg said:
No. Here's what happens (oversimplified):
1. The Federal Open Market Committee (most members appointed by the president) comes together and discusses the economic and financial conditions and what is the best action to undertake. (usually expand the money supply)
2. The FED purchases U.S. securities on the second market (Open Market Operations).
3. They pay these securities with printed money.
4. The interest on the securities minus the expenses of the Fed is returned to the Treasury.

Why not skip out the middleman?
Because governments tend to influence the economy when it suits them. Why burst a bubble if elections are coming? Why combat inflation when the government is the main beneficiary in the short term and disinflation will have a negative impact on the short term? etc.

The independence of central banks is crucial to make the system work and to have people trust it. Even minor signs that government is intervening can have serious implications.
Click to expand...

I disagree wholeheartedly, but what can I say. I don't quite understand all of it yet, but the way I see it, it's far better to let the government handle it in the open than to assign a private company to do it.
 
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imstellar28 said:
Now imagine that same situation where you aren't paying income tax or high interest. Suddenly you have 2,500 a month to live on (what you were previously living on and having to pay mortgage!) and you own a house in 5 years!
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Some people just have no idea how to think.

Let's just say that all of a sudden income taxes were abolished. What do you think would happen to the price of that $150,000 house? I guarantee it won't be $150,000. Like so many other things in our society, houses will sell at the prices that people are willing to pay. If everybody suddenly made more money, that extra income would be reflected in the prices around you.

Would removing income tax make you richer? Yup. But it would also make everyone else around you richer as well. A rising tide lifts all ships.

Instead of whining about taxes, why don't you get an education, get a good paying job, and work hard.
 
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