The Money Masters

imstellar28 said:
Our national debt has been around 60 million until the after the civil war where it spiked to 1 billion around 1863. It remained constant at 1-2 billion until 3 years after 1913 when the federal reserve was created. Since then, our national debt has grown every year by exponential amounts to its current value of 9 trillion.

So from 1776-1913 the debt was constant, and then it rose exponentially from 2 billion to 9 trillion in 90 years....and you are trying to SUPPORT the federal reserve and income tax?
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$1 billion in 1863 was more of a burden on the economy than $9 trillion is today. It is not an accurate comparison.

You are right in that there is some connection, having a constant stream of revenue from an income tax allows a government to safely support a larger debt load. Since I doubt anyone is going to seriously consider abolishing the income tax, I would suggest supporting politicians who are serious about responsible spending.
 
Ron Paul supports abolishing the income tax and hes running for president in 2008. At the very least dropping it to a flat tax 15-17% makes more sense than our current system.

As to the comparison between 1 billion and 9 trillion--not only are we taxed directly we are taxed with inflation...that just makes the matters worse.
 
imstellar28 said:
Ron Paul supports abolishing the income tax and hes running for president in 2008. At the very least dropping it to a flat tax 15-17% makes more sense than our current system.
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who in congress will support this? im not implying no one will, im just pointing out the president alone doesnt have the authority to make changes to tax law
 
defaultdotxbe said:
who in congress will support this? im not implying no one will, im just pointing out the president alone doesnt have the authority to make changes to tax law
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I agree, but if the president brings certain issues to light, then people will start to demand their congressmen vote along those lines, or will seek to elect people who will vote along those lines.
 
imstellar28 said:
Ron Paul supports abolishing the income tax and hes running for president in 2008. At the very least dropping it to a flat tax 15-17% makes more sense than our current system.

As to the comparison between 1 billion and 9 trillion--not only are we taxed directly we are taxed with inflation...that just makes the matters worse.
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And Ron Paul has about the same chance of winning as I do, possibly less.

Low predictable inflation really poses no economic harm. Whether you have 0% inflation, with 3% interest rates, or 2% inflation with 5% interest rates, there is no real difference. It makes economic comparisons difficult over time, but does not hurt the standard of living.
 
Well theres a reason they call Ron Paul "Dr. No" he votes against any unconstitutional piece of legislation, so I can also imagine him vetoing plenty of big-spending bills or anything which increase the size or scope of the federal government.
 
imstellar28 said:
For someone making $50,000 a year, why is it that it takes them 20-30 years to pay off a $150,000 house? Why not only 5 years or so? You aren't going to notice the change instantly...but do you think millionaires take out loans for houses? Imagine that you pay off your house in 5 years instead of 30, how imagine all your children doing the same, do you think after several generations you would need as many loans? The average American earns what 1-2 million in their lifetime? How much of that goes to pay interest or is immediately taken away from the government as income tax?
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Ok you forgot to add other options for rent or buy but let me give you option for the above.

My parents taught me to think ahead and my Dad hated renting because his parents rented when he was a kid, it was the "Jim Crow South", and they got kicked out on a whim. He became a Brick/Stone Mason so he could build his own house and made a pretty good living and learned how to manage his money through trial and error. (Made good more than he lost) and taught what he learned to me.

So I knew I wanted to go to college so I keept my grades up and got a few partial scholarships plus I worked my way through my first 1 1/2 years of undergrad, left school and joined the Army, went back to school (with a few more scholarships that covered total tuition) and decided I was going to be an actor thus I would need to save money so I contiued to work and put my GI bill in savings. When I started my Jr year I decided I would go to Grad school.

I won several scholarships and had my tuition and fees for Grad waived. My classmates took out student loans and got really nice apartments. I rented a little room in a guy's old victorian house for $100 a month. I put my scholarships, the pay from the NYC shows I did, and the rest of my GI bill into savings.

After three years, I left Grad school with $110,000. My girlfiend (now fiancee) was accepted at Florida State so we moved to Tallahasse and I brought a condo for $90,000 cash. I got a Job teaching at FSU and FAMU making about $42,000 (after taxes) a year. Plus I worked on weekends and any day I had off as a Brick/Stone Mason (Insert evil laugh) doing mostly little jobs and repair. That was about 3 years ago and Alyssa graduates this April. So we are going to be moving to Chicago.

Ok, so instead of buying a lot of furniture and knowing we would be moving when she graduates, we saved as much as possible. The condo is appraised at $125,000 on the market now and we've saved about $100,000. Assuming we can get full price for the condo we go to Chicago (Chicago area) with $225,000 to buy a place cash.

Now, my Dad died last year and his estate was worth about $400,000 which Is now split between our retirement fund, the stock market (long term), and a savings fund that will either go to our children's education or our retirement depending on if our kids piss me off or not.

So I'm not a millionare, I'm not in debt, and I can buy a decent house in a decent neighborhood without going into debt. It took 16 years ans many of them uncomfortable, granted a lot of things fell into place for me, but the majority of it was me looking ahead to what I wanted. (Well that and Dad's foot in my ass.)
 
Redtail said:
Ok you forgot to add other options for rent or buy but let me give you option for the above.

My parents taught me to think ahead and my Dad hated renting because his parents rented when he was a kid, it was the "Jim Crow South", and they got kicked out on a whim. He became a Brick/Stone Mason so he could build his own house and made a pretty good living and learned how to manage his money through trial and error. (Made good more than he lost) and taught what he learned to me.

So I knew I wanted to go to college so I keept my grades up and got a few partial scholarships plus I worked my way through my first 1 1/2 years of undergrad, left school and joined the Army, went back to school (with a few more scholarships that covered total tuition) and decided I was going to be an actor thus I would need to save money so I contiued to work and put my GI bill in savings. When I started my Jr year I decided I would go to Grad school.

I won several scholarships and had my tuition and fees for Grad waived. My classmates took out student loans and got really nice apartments. I rented a little room in a guy's old victorian house for $100 a month. I put my scholarships, the pay from the NYC shows I did, and the rest of my GI bill into savings.

After three years, I left Grad school with $110,000. My girlfiend (now fiancee) was accepted at Florida State so we moved to Tallahasse and I brought a condo for $90,000 cash. I got a Job teaching at FSU and FAMU making about $42,000 (after taxes) a year. Plus I worked on weekends and any day I had off as a Brick/Stone Mason (Insert evil laugh) doing mostly little jobs and repair. That was about 3 years ago and Alyssa graduates this April. So we are going to be moving to Chicago.

Ok, so instead of buying a lot of furniture and knowing we would be moving when she graduates, we saved as much as possible. The condo is appraised at $125,000 on the market now and we've saved about $100,000. Assuming we can get full price for the condo we go to Chicago (Chicago area) with $225,000 to buy a place cash.

Now, my Dad died last year and his estate was worth about $400,000 which Is now split between our retirement fund, the stock market (long term), and a savings fund that will either go to our children's education or our retirement depending on if our kids piss me off or not.

So I'm not a millionare, I'm not in debt, and I can buy a decent house in a decent neighborhood without going into debt. It took 16 years ans many of them uncomfortable, granted a lot of things fell into place for me, but the majority of it was me looking ahead to what I wanted. (Well that and Dad's foot in my ass.)
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Do you see the power of a good start? Your dad was able to overcome the slavery of debt and passed that advantage to you. Outside of your situation, many people don't make it to college and those who do have to take out student loans and end up walking into the real world $40,000 in debt. Theres nothing wrong with this, but they also are walking into more debt with car payments, mortgages, etc. Its a vicious cycle and many blue collar workers never escape it.

Like I said though, there are several solutions if people decide that what we have isn't acceptable enough.
 
You also said it took 16 years many of which were spent uncomfortably. You had to fight tooth and nail to escape debt even given a good start. Why can't we improve on the system so its natural and the only thing people have to worry about is what to do with their free time, rather than how they are going to survive till the next paycheck comes in?
 
imstellar28 said:
Do you see the power of a good start? Your dad was able to overcome the slavery of debt and passed that advantage to you. Outside of your situation, many people don't make it to college and those who do have to take out student loans and end up walking into the real world $40,000 in debt. Theres nothing wrong with this, but they also are walking into more debt with car payments, mortgages, etc. Its a vicious cycle and many blue collar workers never escape it.

Like I said though, there are several solutions if people decide that what we have isn't acceptable enough.
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but he did it himself, he didnt have to blame invisible "money masters" or tell people they need to overcome slavery, he saw a problem in his life and fixed it


imstellar28 said:
You also said it took 16 years many of which were spent uncomfortably. You had to fight tooth and nail to escape debt even given a good start. Why can't we improve on the system so its natural and the only thing people have to worry about is what to do with their free time, rather than how they are going to survive till the next paycheck comes in?
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actually from what i gathered redtail didnt have to escape debt, he chose a somewhat tougher life as opposed to going into debt, which is precisely the problem i mentioned earlier, peopel goign into debt so they can live outside their means then blaming others for their problems
 
imstellar28 said:
Do you see the power of a good start? Your dad was able to overcome the slavery of debt and passed that advantage to you. Outside of your situation, many people don't make it to college and those who do have to take out student loans and end up walking into the real world $40,000 in debt. Theres nothing wrong with this, but they also are walking into more debt with car payments, mortgages, etc. Its a vicious cycle and many blue collar workers never escape it.

Like I said though, there are several solutions if people decide that what we have isn't acceptable enough.
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It is a vicious cycle, often due to poor planning. Why buy a car you have to make payments on? Why gamble on your mortage? Why take out a student loan larger than you need so you can buy whatever fasionable clothes there are at the time so you can go to class cute, or live in a huge apartment by yourself? Some of my classmates in grad were $70,000 in debt when they left and many students in my classes do the same.
 
imstellar28 and edge ought to team up. edge can dig gold and imstellar can coin it. They can spend their Thank God I'm Free At Last dollars only at mom 'n pop groceries, buying day-old bread and salami, and in winter a tank of propane maybe once a month. They can move into an abandoned trailer, raid Salvaton Army bins for clothes (anything will fit after you've starved for a while), and whittle huaraches out of junked tires. Then they can snort defiance at all the Rothschilds and Rockefellers.

Boy, won't WE look silly then.
 
imstellar28 said:
You also said it took 16 years many of which were spent uncomfortably. You had to fight tooth and nail to escape debt even given a good start. Why can't we improve on the system so its natural and the only thing people have to worry about is what to do with their free time, rather than how they are going to survive till the next paycheck comes in?
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No, I got by on the basics because it they were all I needed at the time. Also fighting tooth and nail is an overstatement. I had to live in a tiny little room or in the dorms, I had to eat at the CAF or cook instead of going to BK, etc..., I had to work on the weekends instead of going to the bars. (again most of the time) Not really that big a deal.
 
imstellar28 said:
If you want to get specifics on policy heres some ideas:
1. return the power of printing currency to the government
2. sharply decrease the power/scope of the government via the repeal of income tax
3. criminal/civil charges on proponents of greed, poverty, and malice
4. reduce the centralization of wealth
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Ok, so how do you propose that the roads, welfare, medicare, and all the other tax funded programs be taken care of, if you eliminate income tax. You think big business is gonna donate to a welfare program? You think big business is gonna fit the bill for roads?

Ok, so what qualifies someone as a "proponent" of greed, poverty, and malice? Does Mark Cuban fit this bill? if so why? Does Murdock? if so, why?, does Bill Gates, if so, why? how do you define (you need to define it as you are planning on criminally/civily charging these people) a "proponent" of such things?

So you are not a communist, but an anti-capitalist...ah I like the GREY.

Sure, let the govt print the money, then you can blame them for that too.

These suggestions you have made will never happen, so why not come up with some sensible ideas that might actually have a chance of coming to be.

TAM:)
 
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