The Metaphysical Consciousness

It can be explained (for example, as the Archimedean point of any possible activity, physical or mantel) but it does not need any explanation in order to simply be as unity.


Yes, this is some possible description of unity.


It is indeed useful exactly as the Archimedean point is useful as the basis of any possible activity.


In that case it demonstrates your current misunderstanding of the principle of lever (which is ironically, your avatar).

We can understand the concept of the Archimedean point, but it does not actually exist. We can call something an Archimedean point, but it does not make it one. Descartes tried to find that starting point but never really got there.

I did err above, though, by saying this thing cannot be explained. Anything can be explained to an extent, even if it is nonsense and does not exist.
 
No. Awareness in its self state is unity that is the base ground of any changing (any activity).
Nope. Wrong. Awareness is brain activity. This is an established fact.

There is no another source to unity, exactly because it is its own source.
This unity of yours does not exist.

So I'll ask you again, did you try to actually practice any mental technique, which actually enables to directly aware of unity (where no multiplicity of any kind including mental activity of thoughts process is found)?
There's no such thing. It is, by definition, impossible.
 
Indeed when one is directly aware of itself without thoughts, the result is higher correlations of brain waves, especially alpha brain waves.
That doesn't happen. It's a contradiction.

Once again, being at self awareness without thoughts does not mean that your physical\mental active expressions disappear in other levels.
Because it doesn't happen.
 
Your replies demonstrate another round of hands waving style, no detailed reply to anything that was written.

Donn, it is boring and I am not going to continue to reply to your hands waving communication style.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

Ask a chemist to demonstrate the basics of atomic bonding and they'd do so without any trouble. Ask a computer scientist to show the truth of algorithms, and they would run code for you to see. Ask a physicist how they know light is a particle and they'd show you the double slit experiment.

Ask a TM advocate to show you what they've got and you get ... Bafflegab bombarded, shut down, diverted, snowed-in, run-around and finally ignored.

Yep, you're onto something there.
 

Wow, that's a fine hatchet job.

From the letter:
The account written by Joe Kellett is an interesting and unfortunate story. He attributes the problems he developed in his life to his involvement with the TM program. I think it is entirely possible that he may have developed similar problems at some point had he experienced other notable life-style changes.
The entire letter implies and conjures the spectre of mental disease and then glues it to a critic of TM in one sentence. It's shameful.

Let's see, a TM adept who is a Psychiatrist uses his language and position to downplay a TM critic, and he does it without honour.

Yeah, I can see why the world likes you guys. I really can.
 
Wow, that's a fine hatchet job.

From the letter:
The account written by Joe Kellett is an interesting and unfortunate story. He attributes the problems he developed in his life to his involvement with the TM program. I think it is entirely possible that he may have developed similar problems at some point had he experienced other notable life-style changes.
The entire letter implies and conjures the spectre of mental disease and then glues it to a critic of TM in one sentence. It's shameful.

Let's see, a TM adept who is a Psychiatrist uses his language and position to downplay a TM critic, and he does it without honour.

Yeah, I can see why the world likes you guys. I really can.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

Ask a chemist to demonstrate the basics of atomic bonding and they'd do so without any trouble. Ask a computer scientist to show the truth of algorithms, and they would run code for you to see. Ask a physicist how they know light is a particle and they'd show you the double slit experiment.

Ask a TM advocate to show you what they've got and you get ... Bafflegab bombarded, shut down, diverted, snowed-in, run-around and finally ignored.

Yep, you're onto something there.

Donn, if you're going to resort to these kinds of finger-typing and fact-mentioning arguments, there's nothing I can add...

:D
 
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Why you finger-typing, fact-mentioning varmint! :D


I'm surprised the OP hasn't pointed out that he has already supplied us with an extremely accurate prediction that it will take 1% of the square root of all practitioners to bring about a phase-change of the universe… or perhaps he hasn't mentioned this as a reply to the demands for knowledge that has been brought back from the source of all knowledge, because it was discovered in some other way, and not through the meditational visitation to the source.


But he didn't bother to defend this bit of maths when I ridiculed it earlier in this thread. He's not responded with the source.

The faulty reasoning on display is typical of the approach to thinking that chooses a target, and then tries to get there by picking a path to the target. He has decided that TM™ and all the claims made for it are real, and therefore everything else is subservient to that conclusion.

But when he says that the "calm, peaceful" state of mind is the source of all action, I see that he is confusing end state with source. Unbalance is the source of movement. Calm is the end state after all action has been expended: when entropy is maximised.
 
I agree Syd.

The assumption is that successful meditation can produce super/meta-natural effects is taken as true and obvious; thereafter, it's only to find better vehicles and routes down into the mind.

TM is one such tour-operation that promises to get you there. With a few early wins, experiencing strange new things under pressure, love bombing and sleep starvation, you can quickly be convinced that what they say about the mind's mysteries is real. ($cientologies' TR0 routine is infamous as the hook into that - ahem, cough, cough - respectable church.)

Few know that after the first few, well-heeled by now, experiences, all that remains is fruitless "training" (for sale) while you chase a willow-the-whisp dream of Nirvana or Superpower or Enlightenment into the future.

That first hook is so strong, along with other frailties of the mind that serve to enmesh you, that you build strong confirmation bias into the mounting cost you sink into the chase that further binds you into blind belief.

The Meta-physical consciousness is Meta-profitable for clever Meta-psychopaths who play human foibles like harps that shed adoration and cash.
 
Red herring. General criticism does not have to be such. I don't know who Kellett is and I picked that URL with bias to counter your own links.
Donn, you are using URL for criticism, without even checking the quality of it or the background of its author.

I gave two concrete examples of the "quality" of Kellets' "criticism" in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10137089&postcount=133 that you did not bother to check their contents and replay in details about them.

Here is your waving hands reply:
Your "detailed" example was silly.

Joe Kellett said:
Poor Tony Nader was just an ordinary guy (an accomplished scientist but he still put his pants on one leg at time) until Mahesh broke his mind to the point that Nader believes all of that about himself.
So Donn, your current favorite TM criticizer "nice" guy calls a person "Poor Tony Nader".

He also has no problems to critique TM by using researches that have nothing to do with TM (shown in the link above).

Let's see, a TM adept who is a Psychiatrist uses his language and position to downplay a TM critic, and he does it without honour.
No Donn, Joe Kellett does not critic TM, but obsessively attacks it during his site, and he is doing it for years.

Your posts inspired me to spend some time on that site today, and I am glad I did. TM sounds like a slow-motion $cientology with about as much content.
So Donn, you are glade to use a site that was written by a person that has no real aim to critique TM but simply attack it in any possible way that he can think of.

He is so obsessive to do that exactly because he believes that all his mental problems are caused by TM.

So I suggest you to not be so glade about a person which is truly suffers (and my heart is with him and I wish him the best) and instead of get a real treatment for his problems he chooses to obsessively attack (not to criticizes, but to obsessively attack) what he believes to be the cause of his problems. His obsessive behavior about TM unfortunately expose his own problems instead of really provide any useful criticism about TM.

Please be more careful by first distinguish between obsessive attacks of X and criticism of X, before you are using it in order to conclude anything about X.
 
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Donn, you are using URL for criticism, without even checking the quality of it or the background of its author.
My latest opinion of that site is quite good. I think it does a reasonable job of doubt and criticism, without going into anger or ad-hominems.

I gave two concrete examples of the "quality" of Kellets' "criticism" in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10137089&postcount=133 that you did not bother to check their contents and replay in details about them.
I don't owe you detail, and I already reported what I thought about your examples.

So Donn, your current favorite TM criticizer "nice" guy calls a person "Poor Tony Nader".
Yes, and?


So Donn, you are glade to use a site that was written by a person that has no real aim to critique TM but simply attack it in any possible way that he can think of.
I felt he had reason and it was not an attack. Criticism is not an attack.

He is so obsessive to do that exactly because he believes that all his mental problems are caused by TM.
What mental problems? You can't use that scurrilous letter by that shrink.

So I suggest you to not be so glade about a person which is truly suffers (and my heart is with him and I wish him the best) and instead of get a real treatment for his problems he chooses to obsessively attack (not to criticizes, but to obsessively attack) what he believes to be the cause of his problems. His obsessive behavior about TM unfortunately expose his own problems instead of really provide any useful criticism about TM.
Don't pour too much poison in that well, you might fall in.

Please be more careful by first distinguish between obsessive attacks of X and criticism of X, before you are using it in order to conclude anything about X.
What do you think criticism should look like?
 
I think it does a reasonable job of doubt and criticism, without going into anger or ad-hominems.
Sure. Like calling a person "Poor Tony Nader". Very reasonable job of doubt and criticism, that also has no problems to use materials that have nothing to do with TM, in order to attack TM.
I don't owe you detail, and I already reported what I thought about your examples.
Your "detailed" example was silly.
Indeed a "great" report Donn.


I felt he had reason and it was not an attack. Criticism is not an attack.

What mental problems? You can't use that scurrilous letter by that shrink.
That "shrink" has a name and your ad-hominems style about him is not going to change that.

What do you think criticism should look like?
Real criticism is not only one-sided view of the criticized subject.
 
Sure. Like calling a person "Poor Tony Nader".
I don't get why this is bad. He's saying Tony Nader is pitiable because of his exposure to TM. He's expressing compassion.

Very reasonable job of doubt and criticism, that also has no problems to use materials that have nothing to do with TM, in order to attack TM.
Your opinion is noted. I don't get it, but I might be missing something.

That "shrink" has a name and your ad-hominems style about him is not going to change that.
Out of that exchange, and the obvious dishonesty of that letter, this is what you choose to focus on?

Real criticism is not only one-sided view of the criticized subject.
IMHO, that site provided links to TM and remained on an even keel while criticising. At any point I could, and did, open a new tab and go look for balance.

Can you point me to some real criticism of TM that you'd approve of, so I can see how it's done?
 
He's expressing compassion.
How do you know this? Did you come to this conclusion by listing, for example, to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeBUFzP9C1w?

Your opinion is noted. I don't get it, but I might be missing something.
Please this time do not miss the following:
Joe Kellett said:
TM can also actually significantly increase anxiety in some people. This is a well-known phenomenon called "relaxation induced anxiety." (http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~wegner/pdfs/Wegner,Broome, & Blumberg 1997.pdf)
TM, if it is practiced right, is not involved with any effort including any attempt to be relaxed, and the attempt to be relaxed is the reason of why some people increase their anxiety disorder, according to this article.

Also TM is not mentioned at all in that article.

Also please look at the following part, taken from Kellet's site ( http://www.suggestibility.org/surprise.php#denaro ) which descripes his own experience:
Joe Kellett said:
Here's the story of my own adventures in TM. When I described it to a psychiatrist years later he called it "induced psychosis." What happened to me is that in my permanently dissociated state I internalized all TM dogma. In particular I internalized the dogma regarding what experiences at "higher levels of consciousness" would be like, and also about demons. I then "had" these "higher" experiences, and also began to experience evil supernatural forces who were opposing the spread of TM. Unfortunately I was able to discuss these and other psychotic ideations with Mahesh, who confirmed them, making things incredibly worse.
So by his own deviance Joe Kellett actually belongs to the minority group in the general pollution, which unfortunately have the tendency to develop mental disorders.

The problem is that Joe Kellett wrongly claims that his bad experiences are typical response of the majority of the population that may practice TM, which is not true.

... and the obvious dishonesty of that letter, ...
I disagree with you. Please look also at the end of this letter.


IMHO, that site provided links to TM and remained on an even keel while criticising. At any point I could, and did, open a new tab and go look for balance.
In that case please provide some concrete examples, which clearly demonstrate your balanced approach about TM, during reading Joe Kellett's site.
 
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How do you know this? Did you come to this conclusion by listing, for example, to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeBUFzP9C1w?
No, by reading.

TM, if it is practiced right, is not involved with any effort including any attempt to be relaxed, and the attempt to be relaxed is the reason of why some people increase their anxiety disorder, according to this article.
I addressed this a few posts up. The David Lynch site speaks of stress. If relaxing is not the antidote to stress, I don't know what is.

For example:
Some of the studies done by TM scientists simply show that some of the same physiological results you can achieve by relaxing completely are achievable by TM. Nevertheless, according to TM advocates, tests have shown that TM produces "neurophysiological signatures that are distinctly different from relaxation and rest "[Judy Stein, personal correspondence]. Critics disagree.* The particular value of these physiological changes one can achieve by meditation have not been shown to be unique to transcendental meditation.
-- http://skepdic.com/tm.html
Also TM is not mentioned at all in that article.
So what?

Also please look at the following part, taken from Kellet's site ( http://www.suggestibility.org/surprise.php#denaro ) which descripes his own experience:
I had not read that page. I looked into it a bit more and found his story here:
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/personal/kellet.shtml

In it, it's fairly clear, he had his mental break as a result of the intense (non relaxing!) meditation routines over a period of months.

Even if he had some mental fragility before he went in, this does not mean you get to point a finger at him and dismiss him. You are the one waving your hands, to distract from and downplay criticism.

So by his own deviance Joe Kellett actually belongs to the minority group in the general pollution, which unfortunately have the tendency to develop mental disorders.
See what I mean. Shame on you.

The problem is that Joe Kellett wrongly claims that his bad experiences are typical response of the majority of the population that may practice TM, which is not true.
I reserve the right to doubt this.

I disagree with you. Please look also at the end of this letter.
I re-read it, it remains odious.

In that case please provide some concrete examples, which clearly demonstrate your balanced approach about TM, during reading Joe Kellett's site.
Nope. Not playing your game.
 
I am familiar with TM-EX obsession about TM.
But what about the statements of fact presented? Faculty and administrators at MIT and Harvard are stating that Tony Nader misrepresented his position.

Again, real objective criticism does not provide only bad things about a given subject.
Why not? If I have nothing good to say about the subject, I'm not going to lie.
 
No, by reading.
Why do you think that only reading about person A by what it written by person B (where person A uses only negative criticism about person B) can gives you some information about person B, that more reliable than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeBUFzP9C1w , which actually enables you to examine person B more accurately (to hear and analyze what he has to say, to read his body language, to see how he responses to questions, etc.)?

I addressed this a few posts up. The David Lynch site speaks of stress. If relaxing is not the antidote to stress, I don't know what is.
It is a relaxation that is achieved by using effortless mental technique that, if it is practiced right, does not try to achieve anything during the practice.

Unstressing is a natural result of stress release during the re-normalization of the trained mental\physical system, and one has to be aware of the amount of unstressing in order to reduce the tensity of TM practice, if he\she experience periods of heavy unstressing.

It is clear that Joe Kellett did not tune his TM training according to his periods of heavy unstressing, and as a result he did not use TM correctly, which led him to experience painful results of heavy unstressing. It is very similar to the following case: If one feels severe muscles pain during training and he ignore it, it does not have to be surprised by the pains of over-trained muscles. The same holds also it TM training simply because body and mind are actually two aspects of the same system. I can tell you that I experienced periods of heavy unstressing, I reduced the tensity of TM practice, and this period was naturally over.

Some of the studies done by TM scientists simply show that some of the same physiological results you can achieve by relaxing completely are achievable by TM. Nevertheless, according to TM advocates, tests have shown that TM produces "neurophysiological signatures that are distinctly different from relaxation and rest "[Judy Stein, personal correspondence]. Critics disagree.* The particular value of these physiological changes one can achieve by meditation have not been shown to be unique to transcendental meditation.
-- http://skepdic.com/tm.html
At the end of * Michael D. Coleman writes:
When you no longer need that protection, you will be willing to go through the pain and struggle of breaking out from within.
I agree with him. At the moment that we are able to manage our life, we must not give to anyone or anything to do it for us. And this is exactly the simple fact about TM practice if it is done correctly, which means a totally effortless mental training that gently uses the natural phenomena of thoughts process in order to gradually be aware of quieter level of it, inducing the simplest level that is naturally free of any activity and like Archimedean point, enables the best basis for all levels of activities, whether they are experienced as physical or mental.

Moreover, this simplest state is actually the unified source of both physical and mental phenomena, and therefore enables the natural harmonious linkage among these aspects, and the best conditions to manage our life, exactly because one trains his\her mind to be aware of any possible level of his thoughts process, where this ability actually reinforces his\her flexibility to manage his\her life.

At any time any person that uses any tool, including a tool like TM technique, is the one and only one authority to manage his\her life, and must not blame any other person or organization if he does not no to use his\her own skills in order to save and develop his\her life.

So it can't be used in order to conclude anything about TM.

I had not read that page. I looked into it a bit more and found his story here:
http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/personal/kellet.shtml

In it, it's fairly clear, he had his mental break as a result of the intense (non relaxing!) meditation routines over a period of months.

Even if he had some mental fragility before he went in, this does not mean you get to point a finger at him and dismiss him. You are the one waving your hands, to distract from and downplay criticism.
Once again, any adult person (unless he\she has mental problems in doing so) is responsible to manage his\her own life in any circumstances, and joe Kellet clearly was not able to do that in real time.

See what I mean. Shame on you.
There is nothing to be shamed. Unfortunately Joe Kellet clearly was not able manage his life in real time.

I reserve the right to doubt this.
Please support your claim by using a peer-reviewed scientific long-term research, which clearly supports Joe Kellet arguments against TM about the majority of the population that practicing it around the world.

I re-read it, it remains odious.
No, it simply based on what was already written by Joe Kellet by his own words in his site, about his mantel instability.

Nope. Not playing your game.
My game? You are the one who wrote "At any point I could, and did, open a new tab and go look for balance.", so please actually demonstrate it.
 
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