The Metaphysical Consciousness

[crhkrebs]

Awesome link, there. Thanks for the laugh.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781781/#!po=18.7500

Stundie worthy word salad.

 

[Donn]

This is no more than hands waving reply, without any detailed example that actually demonstrate your claims.

Your claim is that TM is sciency. I don't have to do anything other than ask you to demonstrate this. You have only posted links to unconvincing pseudoscience.

How about doing some work and pick by yourself the best one you can find..

Okay, you got nothing. Sorted.

Once again you continue your hands waving reply by ignoring the detailed examples that I gave about the "quality" of Kellett site. Maybe you are not aware of the simple fact that one has to check counter examples before he\she uses them as criticism.

<waves>

Your "detailed" example was silly. I posted the link to that site exactly for the counter examples provided.

Your posts inspired me to spend some time on that site today, and I am glad I did. TM sounds like a slow-motion $cientology with about as much content.

Again, TM (if it is practiced in the right way) is an effortless mental technique, which means that no one trying to reduce stress.

Well, I guess the David Lynch site is talking about those who do it the wrong way then. Or, you're pulling a No True Mystic.

As long as you miss this simple fact, you wrongly define and understand TM.

Teacher, appraise thyself.

 

[doronshadmi]

EDIT:

When you are "aware", you are experiencing neurological activity.

By analogy, the ocean is the same ocean, whether it has many levels of activity and also no activity at all at its simplest state.

During TM practice the mind very gently and naturally becomes aware of quieter levels of this activity until it is directly aware of the simplest state which is naturally free of any form of activity including any level of the thoughts process.

It does not mean that activity physically or mentally is lost in the other levels of this ocean, it simply means that your awareness is opened to its simplest state, which is naturally unbounded state of mind.

Then naturally without any efforts your awareness is aware again of its many levels of thoughts process, and then naturally aware again of its unbounded calm state, etc. etc.

More one practicing this effortless and gentle technique, more one enables to simultaneously be aware of many levels of mental activity, including the simplest state of awareness, which is naturally free of any activity and like Archimedean point, enables the best basis for all levels of activities, whether they are experienced as physical or mental.

Moreover, this simplest state is actually the unified source of both physical and mental phenomena, and therefore enables the natural harmonious linkage among these aspects.

 

[crhkrebs]

Of course TM is sciency. Just look at the link provided by doronshadmi above. it mentions both Penrose and Milgrom.

Ergo, science. Case closed.

 

[crhkrebs]

By analogy, the ocean is the same ocean, whether it has many levels of activity and also no activity at all at it simplest state.

Sorry, your analogy is confusing. Where in the ocean is there no activity? What does the oceans "simplest state" mean?

During TM practice the mind very gently and naturally becomes aware of quieter levels of this activity until it is directly aware of the simplest state which is naturally free of any form of activity including any level of the thoughts process.

It does not mean that activity physically or mentally is lost in the other levels of this ocean, it simply means that your awareness is opened to its simplest state, which is naturally unbounded state of mind.

Look, I'm sure this actually means something to you. You just don't seem to be able to get any meaning across. You seem to be simply stating that awareness is self referential thought. I know that wasn't your intent, but I agree with you.

Than naturally without any efforts your awareness is aware again to its many levels thoughts process, and the naturally aware again to its unbounded calm state of mind, etc. etc.

My awareness is aware? I wasn't aware of that.

More one practicing this effortless and gentle technique, more one enables to simultaneously be aware of many levels of mental activity, inducing the simplest state of awareness, which is naturally free of any activity and like Archimedean point, enables the best basis for all levels of activities, whether they are experienced as physical or mental.

What is the physiological difference between "physical" and "mental"?

 

[PixyMisa]

During TM practice the mind very gently and naturally becomes aware of quieter levels of this activity until it is directly aware of the simplest state which is naturally free of any form of activity including any level of the thoughts process.

That's just another contradiction. Awareness is itself activity.

It does not mean that activity physically or mentally is lost in the other levels of this ocean, it simply means that your awareness is opened to its simplest state, which is naturally unbounded state of mind.

There's no such thing.

Then naturally without any efforts your awareness is aware again of its many levels of thoughts process, and then naturally aware again of its unbounded calm state, etc. etc.

There's no such thing.

Moreover, this simplest state is actually the unified source of both physical and mental phenomena, and therefore enables the natural harmonious linkage among these aspects.

No.

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

doronshadmi, could you explain what physical and mental is and how they are connected?

 

[tsig]

Here it is again:

Not one of the three papers I read at random represented a "paper about an advance in physics" related to TM.

A shaft dug where it is supposed that water can be found that does not, in fact, reach water is a "dry hole"

A list of citations where it is claimed papers about advances in physics can be found that does not, in fact, address advances in physics is a "dry hole".

Which of the papers to which you linked, in your opinion, represents an actual paper about an advance in physics?

(NB: unsubstantiable metaphysical musings do not constitute "advances" in physics...)

Ah but TM would make no prediction of finding water in the hole, you would find in the bottom of the hole that which you did not expect and your mind would make your body use the hole in an appropriate fashion therefore you would now know the higher purpose of digging holes which is not just to make dirt vacancies but to fill those vacancies with meaningful content./TMer off

 

[tsig]

Awesome link, there. Thanks for the laugh.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781781/#!po=18.7500

Stundie worthy word salad.

The title alone is double plus quantum:

Macroscopic Quantum Coherence in Patient-Practitioner-Remedy Entanglement: The Quantized Fluctuation Field Perspective

 

[Donn]

Heh, double plus quantum.

 

[doronshadmi]

Your claim is that TM is sciency. I don't have to do anything other than ask you to demonstrate this. You have only posted links to unconvincing pseudoscience.



Okay, you got nothing. Sorted.


<waves>

Your "detailed" example was silly. I posted the link to that site exactly for the counter examples provided.

Your posts inspired me to spend some time on that site today, and I am glad I did. TM sounds like a slow-motion $cientology with about as much content.


Well, I guess the David Lynch site is talking about those who do it the wrong way then. Or, you're pulling a No True Mystic.


Teacher, appraise thyself.

Your replies demonstrate another round of hands waving style, no detailed reply to anything that was written.

Donn, it is boring and I am not going to continue to reply to your hands waving communication style.

 

[doronshadmi]

That's just another contradiction. Awareness is itself activity.

Awareness in its simplest state is the source of any activity.

As long as you do not practice any technique which actually enables awareness to be at its simplest state, the inevitable conclusion is contradiction.

 

[doronshadmi]

Sorry, your analogy is confusing. Where in the ocean is there no activity? What does the oceans "simplest state" mean?

By this analogy the simplest state is the calmness at the bottom of the ocean.

Look, I'm sure this actually means something to you. You just don't seem to be able to get any meaning across. You seem to be simply stating that awareness is self referential thought. I know that wasn't your intent, but I agree with you.

Again, there are no thoughts at this calm state of awareness, including self referential thought.

My awareness is aware? I wasn't aware of that.

At its simplest state there is no subject object duality, only unity.

What is the physiological difference between "physical" and "mental"?

"physical" is known as outside and "mental" is known as inside.

At its simplest state awareness has no duality of any kind, only unity.

 

[bruto]

So we have a state that cannot be sustained, cannot be explained, in which thought does not occur, and in which nothing is differentiated from anything else, which occurs neither inside nor outside.


Golly, that sounds useful.

I'm reminded of a line from an old Rolling Stones song, "let's do some living after we're dead."

 

[doronshadmi]

doronshadmi, could you explain what physical and mental is and how they are connected?

Physical and mental are actually the duality of internal (mental) and external (physical) expressions that are derived from state of unity, which is the simplest source of any multiplicity, including the internal\external duality.

 

[doronshadmi]

So we have a state that cannot be sustained, cannot be explained,

It can be explained (for example, as the Archimedean point of any possible activity, physical or mantel) but it does not need any explanation in order to simply be as unity.

in which thought does not occur, and in which nothing is differentiated from anything else, which occurs neither inside nor outside.

Yes, this is some possible description of unity.

Golly, that sounds useful.

It is indeed useful exactly as the Archimedean point is useful as the basis of any possible activity.

I'm reminded of a line from an old Rolling Stones song, "let's do some living after we're dead."

In that case it demonstrates your current misunderstanding of the principle of lever (which is ironically, your avatar).

 

[PixyMisa]

Awareness in its simplest state is the source of any activity.

No. Awareness is itself an activity. Its source is thus, by definition, something else.

As long as you do not practice any technique which actually enables awareness to be at its simplest state, the inevitable conclusion is contradiction.

A contradiction is a contradiction no matter what you practice. What you claim is impossible by definition.

 

[PixyMisa]

Physical and mental are actually the duality of internal (mental) and external (physical) expressions that are derived from state of unity, which is the simplest source of any multiplicity, including the internal\external duality.

This is, again, insofar as it makes any sense at all, untrue.

Mental processes are brain function. They are physical processes; we can and do observe them happening.

 

[doronshadmi]

No. Awareness is itself an activity.

No. Awareness in its self state is unity that is the base ground of any changing (any activity).

Its source is thus, by definition, something else.

There is no another source to unity, exactly because it is its own source.

A contradiction is a contradiction no matter what you practice. What you claim is impossible by definition.

An ignorance of unity is an ignorance unity, no matter what point of view from some level of your thoughts process is used. What you try to define is impossible from any level of your thoughts process.

So I'll ask you again, did you try to actually practice any mental technique, which actually enables to directly aware of unity (where no multiplicity of any kind including mental activity of thoughts process is found)?

Some hint: It can't be done from any level of your thoughts process.

 

[doronshadmi]

Mental processes are brain function. They are physical processes; we can and do observe them happening.

Indeed when one is directly aware of itself without thoughts, the result is higher correlations of brain waves, especially alpha brain waves.

Once again, being at self awareness without thoughts does not mean that your physical\mental active expressions disappear in other levels.

On the contrary, they are more correlated with each other.

Some measured benefits of this improved correlation can be seen, for example, in the following article http://ajh.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/3/310.short

Also here is a bibliography of more than 500 research papers on TM http://www.truthabouttm.org/utility/showDocumentFile/?objectID=61