The Metaphysical Consciousness

Donn said:
I agree; lead by example.
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Some analogy:

A: "What is the taste of a lemon?"

B: "Sour."

A: "Please support your claim by an example."

B: "Please taste a lemon"

A: "No thanks. Please support your claim by an example."
 
doronshadmi said:
Some analogy:

A: "What is the taste of a lemon?"

B: "Sour."

A: "Please support your claim by an example."

B: "Please taste a lemon"

A: "No thanks. Please support your claim by an example."
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Pretty easy actually if you do real science...

B: Lemon juice contains C6H8O7, commonly known as citric acid. So, a lemon tastes like various other citrus fruits and some vegetables without the sugar to mask it.
The example could be a grapefruit without the bitterness.



Only people not adhering to scientific principles will say things like Doron's example.
 
realpaladin said:
Pretty easy actually if you do real science...

B: Lemon juice contains C6H8O7, commonly known as citric acid. So, a lemon tastes like various other citrus fruits and some vegetables without the sugar to mask it.
The example could be a grapefruit without the bitterness.



Only people not adhering to scientific principles will say things like Doron's example.
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I think he's going for the subjective angle — science can't prove a lemon tastes lemony because it's all personal, like. Therefore TM's deep mysteries are just as walled-off from enquiry.

Or something.

If so, what's he even trying to accomplish here?
 
Donn said:
I think he's going for the subjective angle — science can't prove a lemon tastes lemony because it's all personal, like. Therefore TM's deep mysteries are just as walled-off from enquiry.

Or something.

If so, what's he even trying to accomplish here?
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Well, then he and the TM people have to call it something different then.

The ground-rules of science are clear. If you don't play by them, fine, but don't call it science.

As easy as that.

What they want to achieve is the trustworthiness of science, but their own malleable version of woo.

EDIT: Ow man, I just realised that this is the naive discussion about 'maybe the color you see as red I am seeing as blue'.
The confusion here is that *interpretation of experience* is confused with *facts & evidence*.

Obviously we can't prove (yet) the interpretation of an experience, but that is not what science is about.
There are events leading up to an experience, and at some point these can be measured objectively.

What happened above is a typical strawman by TM people: they can not prove a single claim they make, so they start with *Reductio ad absurdum*; "prove that it is not so".

That does not qualify as a scientific method and therefore all their claims are still unproven even *if* nobody can prove them wrong. They have to prove them right.

So if the claim is cardiovascular, then by all means, show results. If the claim is mental, then by all means, show results.

Another fun fact about the TM community I used to live in; they had more mental problems than the rest of the city and most of their children were extremely bad at school. Up to the point that they just started their own school to obfuscate this.

And a really fun fact about the whole TM movement; it condones slavery. Some years ago there was an investigation because of slaves being held in Vlodrop by the Maharishi himself.
 
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realpaladin said:
EDIT: Ow man, I just realised that this is the naive discussion about 'maybe the color you see as red I am seeing as blue'.
The confusion here is that *interpretation of experience* is confused with *facts & evidence*.
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Yes, this seems to be the game.

Obviously we can't prove (yet) the interpretation of an experience, but that is not what science is about.
There are events leading up to an experience, and at some point these can be measured objectively.

What happened above is a typical strawman by TM people: they can not prove a single claim they make, so they start with *Reductio ad absurdum*; "prove that it is not so".

That does not qualify as a scientific method and therefore all their claims are still unproven even *if* nobody can prove them wrong. They have to prove them right.

So if the claim is cardiovascular, then by all means, show results. If the claim is mental, then by all means, show results.
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Indeed, and we chased these rabbits down their holes for a bit. The tunnels got too narrow and full of methane for me!

Another fun fact about the TM community I used to live in; they had more mental problems than the rest of the city and most of their children were extremely bad at school. Up to the point that they just started their own school to obfuscate this.

And a really fun fact about the whole TM movement; it condones slavery. Some years ago there was an investigation because of slaves being held in Vlodrop by the Maharishi himself.
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I have no problem believing this, even only on your anecdote. It fits, given what I learned about that other cult - CO$ - that I have read far more about.

Keep up appearances, misinform and manipulate the game pieces, misinform any critics, keep the game going.
 
Donn said:
I think he's going for the subjective angle
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Exactly the opposite. The calm state of mind (its invariant aspect) is exactly the objective non-personal state of mind, where thoughts' process about it (its variant aspect) are subjective personal view of it.

By the chemical analogy the objective non-personal and invariant aspect is the molecule C6H8O7, where sour taste is your subjective interpretation of it, but your subjective interpretation of C6H8O7 depends on actually tasting it, or in other words, directly know it.

So, is the case of the calm state of mind, without directly know it you simply can't subjectively describe it at the level of your thoughts' process.

So once again here is the previous analogy:

A: "What is the taste of a lemon?"

B: "Sour."

A: "Please support your claim by an example."

B: "Please taste a lemon" (this is direct knowledge of C6H8O7 by actually tasting a lemon)

A: "No thanks. Please support your claim by an example." (this is an attempt to get knowledge by avoiding direct contact with C6H8O7 that enables this knowledge, in the first place).
 
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doronshadmi said:
Exactly the opposite. The calm state of mind (its invariant aspect) is exactly the objective non-personal state of mind, where thoughts' process about it (its variant aspect) are subjective personal view of it.

By the chemical analogy the objective non-personal and invariant aspect is the molecule C6H8O7, where sour taste is your subjective interpretation of it, but your subjective interpretation of C6H8O7 depends on actually tasting it, or in other words, directly know it.

So, is the case of the calm state of mind, without directly know it you simply can't subjectively describe it at the level of your thoughts' process.
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It's so easy when you simply redefine everything. Is it subjective? No, of course not, because I've just redefined the ultimate subjective experience as objective. Presto change-o!

If I am crazy or my taste buds are abnormal, and I taste a lemon and say it tastes like an anchovy, have I described anything useful about a lemon?

If I am crazy or misguided and suggest that, although in a coma there is no metal activity at all and you might as well be dead, there is a "past-coma" spiritual experience that is useful, have I described anything but my own error and inexperience?
 
Donn said:
I have no problem believing this, even only on your anecdote. It fits, given what I learned about that other cult - CO$ - that I have read far more about.
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Yes, your methods are a profound example of scientific work at its best.
 
doronshadmi said:
Exactly the opposite. The calm state of mind (its invariant aspect) is exactly the objective non-personal state of mind, where thoughts' process about it (its variant aspect) are subjective personal view of it.

By the chemical analogy the objective non-personal and invariant aspect is the molecule C6H8O7, where sour taste is your subjective interpretation of it, but your subjective interpretation of C6H8O7 depends on actually tasting it, or in other words, directly know it.

So, is the case of the calm state of mind, without directly know it you simply can't subjectively describe it at the level of your thoughts' process.

So once again here is the previous analogy:

A: "What is the taste of a lemon?"

B: "Sour."

A: "Please support your claim by an example."

B: "Please taste a lemon" (this is direct knowledge of C6H8O7 by actually tasting a lemon)

A: "No thanks. Please support your claim by an example." (this is an attempt to get knowledge by avoiding direct contact with C6H8O7 that enables this knowledge, in the first place).
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Dude! I am on your ignore list, remember?
 
bruto said:
It's so easy when you simply redefine everything.
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You are the one that insist to redefine the absolute in terms of the relative, exactly because relative-only is your view.

bruto said:
If I am crazy or my taste buds are abnormal, and I taste a lemon and say it tastes like an anchovy, have I described anything useful about a lemon?
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Without actually tasting it you can't do anything at all, useful or not.

bruto said:
If I am crazy or misguided and suggest that
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You actually say that there is some objective state of mind, that crazy or misguided people subjectively misinterpret it.

bruto said:
although in a coma there is no metal activity at all and you might as well be dead
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You have missed the Radio analogy in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10189145&postcount=753.

bruto said:
there is a "past-coma" spiritual experience that is useful, have I described anything but my own error and inexperience?
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Sorry but what is exactly ""past-coma" spiritual experience that is useful"?
 
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doronshadmi said:
Sorry but what is exactly ""past-coma" spiritual experience that is useful"?
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The closest state of awareness of a person that never been in coma, is sleep without dreams, or fainting for short time.

During TM body's rest is deeper than deep sleep, yet the person is fully aware without any thoughts' process.
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You imply, at least, that there is an awareness without thought, and a spiritual experience that occurs when the brain is not functioning. I dispute that.
 
Here is a newslink to Maharishi's death in 2008:

http://nos.nl/artikel/67546-maharishi-yogi-91-overleden.html

I completely forgot the other aggressive cult-antics:

- Introduction of a non-legal tender with which he paid people.
- Aggressive recruiting of children at schools.
- Slavery (the judge ordered them to pay up or else)
- Embezzling money to India.

And this is just from the public news.
 
doronshadmi said:
Yes, your methods are a profound example of scientific work at its best.
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More evidence that he doesn't understand what science is. Donn's just thinking logically.

Logic is part of how you do science, but it's not all of it. To get down to the nitty gritty, you need to properly design experiments to try to falsify your hypothesis.

That's in order to get rid of confirmation bias. The whole purpose of science is to overcome our human tendencies to delude ourselves into believing that reality is as we would like it to be (for whatever values of "we would like" attach to each individual).

Your quoted studies set out to prove what they want to be. They would be trying to "disprove" (more properly "falsify") their own hypothesis if they were doing science.

I regret now having played doronshadmi's stupid game to the point where he irritated me into a knee-jerk reaction (perfectly appropriate as it was as a product of the dialogue up to that point), giving him an excuse to claim to put me on ignore.

He's strung this along for so many pages with no substance to them, when we could have been having more fruitful discussion of the actual substance of his claims, instead of the distraction he threw up with such faulty analogies that the stupid analogies became the subject of the thread.

I suspect the tactic is quite consciously adopted in order to avoid such real discussion. It certainly does work in dissipating attention and energy away from fruitful dialogue.
 
realpaladin said:
<snip>

However, I have taken it up as a kind of hobby and training.

Training because I am now the proud father of a 7 month old boy; if I can manage the patience with this orator, I can keep angelic calm to whatever my son will be throwing at me :)
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Congratulations! Your son's a lucky man! :p:)
 
asydhouse said:
More evidence that he doesn't understand what science is. Donn's just thinking logically.

Logic is part of how you do science, but it's not all of it. To get down to the nitty gritty, you need to properly design experiments to try to falsify your hypothesis.

That's in order to get rid of confirmation bias. The whole purpose of science is to overcome our human tendencies to delude ourselves into believing that reality is as we would like it to be (for whatever values of "we would like" attach to each individual).

Your quoted studies set out to prove what they want to be. They would be trying to "disprove" (more properly "falsify") their own hypothesis if they were doing science.

I regret now having played doronshadmi's stupid game to the point where he irritated me into a knee-jerk reaction (perfectly appropriate as it was as a product of the dialogue up to that point), giving him an excuse to claim to put me on ignore.

He's strung this along for so many pages with no substance to them, when we could have been having more fruitful discussion of the actual substance of his claims, instead of the distraction he threw up with such faulty analogies that the stupid analogies became the subject of the thread.

I suspect the tactic is quite consciously adopted in order to avoid such real discussion. It certainly does work in dissipating attention and energy away from fruitful dialogue.
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Eloquently and succinctly put!
 
asydhouse said:
Congratulations! Your son's a lucky man! :p:)
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Thanks :)

Well, at least one thing Doron has managed to improve the world upon; I can easily sit at his bed for hours until he stops babbling and gurgling and finally falls asleep.
 
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