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The Men Behind Obama

It's funny when truthers post outside of Conspiracy Theories.
 
CapelDodger said:
Over here we have to stay up pretty late to get a result, so this "Men Behind Obama" will serve to kill some time retrospectively. I expect hilarity will be enjoyed :).
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I have a hunch (not in the "I can see the future" sense of the word, of course) you are spot-on. ;)
 
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

- Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Posted at www.globalresearch.ca 15 October 2001

(Translated from the French by Bill Blum)
 
JihadJane said:
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

- Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Posted at www.globalresearch.ca 15 October 2001

(Translated from the French by Bill Blum)
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The above is new information to me. It looks like the Carter Administration early on baited the Soviets to invade Afghanistan. Of course the idea would have originated with the Trilateral Commission which Brzezinski and other Carter Administration officials were apart of. I am disappointed Brzezinski, backed Obama but I guess he deiced Obama could be used by others to achieve their goals.
 
WildCat said:
If it's on globalresearch it must be true! :rolleyes:
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Thanks for you interesting counter-argument...;)

Brzezinski was interviewed by Le Nouvel Observateur, not globalresearch, who simply reproduced it.

Are you suggesting that Le Nouvel Observateur fabricated the interview?
 
What's the matter with what J. Jane has said here?

It seems like it's probably an authentic quote, and accurately reflects what Carter, etc. were thinking and doing.

:boxedin:
 
calebprime said:
What's the matter with what J. Jane has said here?

It seems like it's probably an authentic quote, and accurately reflects what Carter, etc. were thinking and doing.
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None of it sounds at all outlandish. Given the Realpolitik mindset of the day, why wouldn't the US shady side be doing exactly this? It's intent would be to damage the USSR, but its effect was to accelerate its demise. Nobody saw that coming.

Another thing nobody saw coming was the Iranian Revolution, which brought Islam centre-stage, in a Shiite guise. The Iranian confrontation with the US (the self-promoted greatest power on Earth) put the Sunni struggle against godless commies in the god-forsaken wilderness of Afghanistan very much in the shade. Sunni Arab resentment of that led directly to 9/11, via the US Embassy bombings in Africa. Proof that they were ready to take on the biggest guy in the bar.
 
JihadJane said:
Thanks for you interesting counter-argument...;)

Brzezinski was interviewed by Le Nouvel Observateur, not globalresearch, who simply reproduced it.

Are you suggesting that Le Nouvel Observateur fabricated the interview?
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It's not as if this was the only time that Brzezinski has said these things, and he's not alone in saying them. One of the great things about the US is that nothing can be kept secret for long. The First Amendment puts paid to that.
 
calebprime said:
What's the matter with what J. Jane has said here?

It seems like it's probably an authentic quote, and accurately reflects what Carter, etc. were thinking and doing.

:boxedin:
Click to expand...
Maybe, but I wonder about the translation. After all, that site also claims the US detonated a nuke in Iraq.
 
CapelDodger said:
It's not as if this was the only time that Brzezinski has said these things, and he's not alone in saying them. One of the great things about the US is that nothing can be kept secret for long. The First Amendment puts paid to that.
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JihadJane thinks the US government were behind the 9/11 attacks. You should see the lunacy that goes on in the Conspiracy Theories section!
 
WildCat said:
Maybe, but I wonder about the translation. After all, that site also claims the US detonated a nuke in Iraq.
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It's pretty well known that Operation Cyclone began 6 months before the Soviet invasion. Conspiracists and other anti-American types like to pretend this was the major or only contributing cause of the Soviet invasion. Never mind that the Soviets were already sending in reinforcements at the Afghan government's request in order to suppress the uprising before Cyclone had even started, and never mind that there were plenty of other countries and groups supporting the Afghan insurgency long before the U.S. got involved, including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic states. Massive funding and arms assistance from the U.S. didn't begin until well after the invasion.
 
WildCat said:
JihadJane thinks the US government were behind the 9/11 attacks. You should see the lunacy that goes on in the Conspiracy Theories section!
Click to expand...

Perhaps you need to develop a more accurate method of political analysis than relying on other people's lunacy!
 
Slayhamlet said:
It's pretty well known that Operation Cyclone began 6 months before the Soviet invasion. Conspiracists and other anti-American types like to pretend this was the major or only contributing cause of the Soviet invasion. Never mind that the Soviets were already sending in reinforcements at the Afghan government's request in order to suppress the uprising before Cyclone had even started, and never mind that there were plenty of other countries and groups supporting the Afghan insurgency long before the U.S. got involved, including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic states. Massive funding and arms assistance from the U.S. didn't begin until well after the invasion.
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Exactly, its not as if the Soviets would have left Afghanistan alone if the US had done nothing.

Their faction was already under threat from a groundswell of popular opposition that manifested most visibly in the Islamist movement. THey would have still had to counter that threat and indeed, had been already doing so.

The US simply played a role in augmenting the force capabilities of the Afghans - but what is forgotten is how much of their weaponry was Soviet. This happens in any country awash in weapons and involved in a civil conflict. Look at the weaponry wielded by Palestinians - seizures have happened plenty of times where the weapons seized had hebrew markings on them. The Mujahideen were making great gains with AK-47s and Russian stuff since there'll always be someone who wants to make a buck and its not as if the Russian soldiers were lavishly paid.

You see this kind of oversimplification a lot in conspiracist circles. "The US drew Russia into Afghanistan", "Hamas is a Mossad creation and wouldnt have come about without them".

No, actually its not that simple. Anytime a larger power involves itself with a political faction involved in conflict in order to serve its interest there has to BE a political faction there for them to help in the first place.

What's ignored is that half of the equation. Hamas was a grassroots and organic product of Palestinian society, history and the pressures of conflict. SOmething like them would have occurred without the hand of Mossad. OSama's Afghan rebellion was a natural product of the cultural history of Afghanistan and formed on the crucible of decade upon decade of violence and conflict.

The picture is always more complicated than the fantasists would have you believe, where all actions are causally reduced to be the direct consequence of Great Power intervention. All unfolds due to these forces, nothing occurs without their approval and knowledge.

EDIT: Another example of this oversimplification would be continually pointing to the state sponsors of Hezbollah, as if its creation and direction were entirely the work of bigger powers like Iran or Syria. Only a fool would deny that these entities played a role in its creation and support - but there's a danger of oversimpliciation that people fall into all the time on this, coming to describe Hezbollah solely through its connections to Syria and Iran.
 
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CapelDodger said:
None of it sounds at all outlandish. Given the Realpolitik mindset of the day, why wouldn't the US shady side be doing exactly this? It's intent would be to damage the USSR, but its effect was to accelerate its demise. Nobody saw that coming.

Another thing nobody saw coming was the Iranian Revolution, which brought Islam centre-stage, in a Shiite guise. The Iranian confrontation with the US (the self-promoted greatest power on Earth) put the Sunni struggle against godless commies in the god-forsaken wilderness of Afghanistan very much in the shade. Sunni Arab resentment of that led directly to 9/11, via the US Embassy bombings in Africa. Proof that they were ready to take on the biggest guy in the bar.
Click to expand...

Exactly. They're hanging the sins of the Cold War on individual heads, as if excising these people would have ushered in a peacful Utopia some time around 1967. The systemic pressures of a bipolar world created these "necessary evils". We can debate about those perceptions of "necessary", and the morality of both powers using weaker countries as pawns with little sympathy for the publics of these countries. But we're missing the forest for the trees if our discussion solely rests on the individuals in government without considering the systemic side of things. The side that really shapes the decisions of individuals and guides history to certain predictable outcomes.

Its not as if Brezinski is some particularly important cog in the wheels of history. He's a policy guy who's had some high-level access to decision making in American foreign policy. Take him out of the picture and I'm sure things may have come out ever-so-slightly differently, but I can't believe that it would have changed all that much.

While I understand the disgust people have for the ways in which the Cold War relegated millions to misery and devastation (I share it), I think its misguided to pick out favourite villains when the real problems are not so much the individuals, but the development of worldviews that allow people to rationalize callous decisions as necessary and the perception of threat (sometimes grounded, sometimes not).
 
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