The Massei/Mignini Conspiracy Theory

You are correct. There is no mention of a black man in that article. Looking at some of the local articles before Amanda's arrest there appears to be a focus on North Africans, mentioned in both of these articles. The details that they were provided is astounding. I wonder why the focus on North Africans. Did the police think a North African man was involved?

http://translate.google.com/transla...va_suo_assassino_Trovate_co_9_071104164.shtml

http://translate.google.com/transla...unta_secondo_uomo_Tracce_co_9_071105084.shtml

These collection of brief articles from Corriere Della Sera, November 8, 2007, may answer some of your questions (the articles are in English). The earliest date of the articles appear to be November 3, 2007.

http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2007/11_Novembre/08/perugia_meredhit.shtml
 
These collection of brief articles from Corriere Della Sera, November 8, 2007, may answer some of your questions (the articles are in English). The earliest date of the articles appear to be November 3, 2007.

http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2007/11_Novembre/08/perugia_meredhit.shtml

3 November and it seems another North African connection:

On the investigators’ files is a statement from two men who came forward on 3 November. “Early yesterday afternoon”, they say, “we went to the coin-operated laundry in Via Fabretti to do our washing. It was about 1.30 pm. We wandered off for a few minutes and when we got back to the laundromat we saw a woman and a foreigner. The foreigner left when we arrived. In front of the woman, we commented on the foreigner’s curious behaviour. She said that the foreigner had staggered in shortly before and put his washing into the machine, including some blue Nike trainers. Then he left and got stuck in the door but quickly managed to freed himself. A little later, he came back and we saw him take his washing out of the machine and put it in the dryer. The woman said she had seen him rummaging in a rubbish skip with another foreigner. He’s about one metre 75 tall with olive skin and must be North African”. It is not known who the man is or whether his odd behaviour has anything to do with the murder. At this stage, however, investigators do not want to overlook any details as they seek to discover whether any other people may have been involved in the murder.

Interesting,
Thanks.
 
Here is another article just after the arrests that reveals another interesting quote from Felice.

There's bitterness over the death of a young girl - said Arturo De Felice - who came to Perugia to study and here he met his death. But there is also satisfaction for the work done in these hours by the men of the police. We felt the weight of responsibility to the citizens, who wanted a definite answer and they wanted it now. "

And it mentions a statement from the police commisioner.

The Commissioner confirmed that currently there are no suspects at large.

http://translate.google.com/transla...72-11dc-bade-00000e251029&DocRulesView=Libero

It sounds like they were in a real rush to close the case.
 
So there is still no actual evidence to suggest a police conspiracy, in particular no evidence that the ILE were even aware of Lumumba before examining Knox's phone on Nov 5.

The conspiracy theory seems to be entirely based on the assumption that because it is obvious that "Amanda is innocent", the only way to explain the evidence against her is that she must have been framed. This is classic CT reasoning of course.

'Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by sheer incompetence.'

In fitting fashion, the police in Perugia were incompetent enough for both sides! They even came up with their own conspiracy theories! :D

On a serious note, do you realize that the only reason to think Amanda is guilty of anything comes from the three statements I posted last page? They go from those three statements to Amanda and Raffaele raping and murdering Meredith Kercher without any evidence to get them there. Bra clasps and 'murder knives' that never left the drawer that night get them nothing, being as adding a few picograms to nothing still leaves them with basically nothing. All the stains on the floor (outside Rudy's) amount to zilch, have you seen the diagram?

'Attributing' those luminol splotches (especially)to anyone is just an indication of how desperate they were to find anything at all 'suspicious' in that house. Amanda's DNA in her own bathroom is probably the least surprising 'find' in the whole case. None of that adds up to anything resembling a coherent theory of the murder, as odds are extreme most of it has nothing to do with the crime. They're just stains on the floor, revealed with luminol, that tested negative for blood. It's the sort of thing that wouldn't ever get used unless the case was really weak, which is why a lot of it they didn't even bother with until they were unexpectedly forced to return 46 days later. Then they threw the whole floor at both of them.

Why did they do this? They didn't have much of a case. They made a poor decision initially and kept fooling themselves with confirmation bias as they ran out of evidence. The reason they initially decided Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had anything to do with raping and murdering Meredith Kercher is (probably) because Raffaele went in there stoned and quickly acceded to the police version of events and then they put the screws to Amanda all night long until they freaked her out and momentarily convinced her she must have been at the scene of the crime when it happened, after all they had 'hard evidence' of her being there.
 
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This is all very interesting and speculative but it isn't evidence.

The same thing goes for the text message and the ensuing arrest of Knox and Lumumba. It was not the text message in and of itself that caused Patrick's arrest. It was Amanda's accusation of murder. You can speculate that the text message caused the police to conspire to frame both Amanda and Patrick all you like but you have no evidence that this is the case.

Oh, they weren't trying to 'frame' anyone, they were trying to find who murdered Meredith Kercher, and took a detour and ended up chasing conspiracies instead. It kinda crept up on them I think. They started with two, then they had to go to three, and almost ended up with four (!) until they realized how silly it was and reined it in.

Real police forces don't go arresting people because the girl they've interrogated all night 'vaguely' and 'confusedly' 'remember' they were cowering in a kitchen when it happened. They need corroborating evidence, something the judge won't laugh at. Which incidentally they presented to the Court of Freedom, didn't they? They got permission to pursue a case against Patrick Lumumba, they musta had more than Amanda's withdrawn and soon to be thrown out 'confession/accusation?'

Help me out here, what was the evidence presented to the Court of Freedom against Patrick Lumumba?


Do you understand the distinction between worthless speculation and evidence?

The Massei Report and Rudy's conviction.

(you walked right into that!) :D
 
'Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by sheer incompetence.'

Or to put it another way: "Many journalists have fallen for the conspiracy theory of government. I do assure you that they would produce more accurate work if they adhered to the cock-up theory*".

*Erm, in case the phrase is not familiar to U.S. posters. :D
 
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That's fairly easy to answer.... the interview that ended at 1:45 wasn't taped because it did not take place in Mignini's office.

Suspect interrogations are required to be taped in accordance with Italian law. It appears that your argument is actually better employed as yet another reason why they are lying about their interrogation of Amanda being taped. If the interviews in the prosecutor's office are taped, then it would seem to follow that an interrogation in the room especially set up for taping as it's required by law in some instances would by routine be taped, especially by police in a culture where behavioral cues are considered so determinative of potential guilt.

Oh, and if the 'control room' didn't have anything to do with the interrogation, why were people going back in forth from the interrogation chamber and the 'control room' as revealed in Rose's link?
 
Suspect interrogations are required to be taped in accordance with Italian law. It appears that your argument is actually better employed as yet another reason why they are lying about their interrogation of Amanda being taped. If the interviews in the prosecutor's office are taped, then it would seem to follow that an interrogation in the room especially set up for taping as it's required by law in some instances would by routine be taped, especially by police in a culture where behavioral cues are considered so determinative of potential guilt.

Oh, and if the 'control room' didn't have anything to do with the interrogation, why were people going back in forth from the interrogation chamber and the 'control room' as revealed in Rose's link?

But Amanda wasn´t a suspect when they started the interview that night. Hence no requirement to tape the interview.

As for the control room... there could be any number of reasons that people went back and forth. I was just addressing the implication made by some that the lack of taping was strange since there is a control room.
 
But Amanda wasn´t a suspect when they started the interview that night. Hence no requirement to tape the interview.

Except the obvious one they wouldn't ignore: it helps them to catch crooks. There's utterly no reason not to tape everything they can, especially if they are so mesmerized by 'behavioral cues.' If something becomes inconvenient they just erase it and no harm done, as was the case here. They were required by law to tape the latter half of that session and claimed they 'forgot,' and there was no penalty.

After 1:45 AM they were required by law to tape everything, and that would have included the second statement of course, and especially how it was produced. If it was anything like Amanda testified it was, and the resulting gibberish bears her out on that, they couldn't let that tape see the light of day because it was neither a confession, nor an accusation. It is absolutely incredible they've managed to make four charges on the basis of the interrogation that got thrown out by the Supreme Court, it was truly the gift that keeps on giving to ILE and yet another reason I have come to loathe the system that allows such nonsense.

I think they should get the British common law system and you can trade them your cuisine for theirs so everyone will be happy! :D


As for the control room... there could be any number of reasons that people went back and forth. I was just addressing the implication made by some that the lack of taping was strange since there is a control room.

I think the suggestion was they were all watching on CCTV from the 'control room.' Of course we both realize that doesn't mean the recording equipment was necessarily turned on, though it's also possible that's automatic.
 
Except the obvious one they wouldn't ignore: it helps them to catch crooks. There's utterly no reason not to tape everything they can, especially if they are so mesmerized by 'behavioral cues.' If something becomes inconvenient they just erase it and no harm done, as was the case here. They were required by law to tape the latter half of that session and claimed they 'forgot,' and there was no penalty.
You have so far consistently failed to provide evidence that there was a latter half of that session.

After 1:45 AM they were required by law to tape everything, and that would have included the second statement of course, and especially how it was produced. If it was anything like Amanda testified it was, and the resulting gibberish bears her out on that, they couldn't let that tape see the light of day because it was neither a confession, nor an accusation. It is absolutely incredible they've managed to make four charges on the basis of the interrogation that got thrown out by the Supreme Court, it was truly the gift that keeps on giving to ILE and yet another reason I have come to loathe the system that allows such nonsense.
I´m rather more convinced that the version of events as described by the ILE is correct and that the ´gibberish´ you mention is the result of Amanda´s failed and amateurish attempt to explain what happened in such a way that she herself was not (directly) implicated.

I think they should get the British common law system and you can trade them your cuisine for theirs so everyone will be happy! :D
What you think they should get is (completely) irrelevant...

I think the suggestion was they were all watching on CCTV from the 'control room.' Of course we both realize that doesn't mean the recording equipment was necessarily turned on, though it's also possible that's automatic.
So let someone provide evidence that the interrogation rooms can be viewed via CCTV in the control room.
While you are at it; it would be usefull if you can show that the taping equipment is operated from the control room.
 
You have so far consistently failed to provide evidence that there was a latter half of that session.

Look at the time of the second statement I posted on page five. Or read my last post in the 'Libel' thread.

I´m rather more convinced that the version of events as described by the ILE is correct and that the ´gibberish´ you mention is the result of Amanda´s failed and amateurish attempt to explain what happened in such a way that she herself was not (directly) implicated.

Would you elaborate on what you believe the ILE version of events is?

So let someone provide evidence that the interrogation rooms can be viewed via CCTV in the control room.
While you are at it; it would be usefull if you can show that the taping equipment is operated from the control room.

Dunno where you'd even get such 'evidence,' though it would strike me as hilarious if the blueprints to police stations in Italy were available online. A nice helping hand for the next jailbreak!

At least I know where the interrogation 'defense' dead-ends now, a demand for wiring schematics of secure locations. Incidentally, I'm curious, imagine for a moment I could lay my hands on such information, what would be the next request? :)
 
These collection of brief articles from Corriere Della Sera, November 8, 2007, may answer some of your questions (the articles are in English). The earliest date of the articles appear to be November 3, 2007.

http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2007/11_Novembre/08/perugia_meredhit.shtml

3 November and it seems another North African connection:



Interesting,
Thanks.

I take it from these that we're all agreed that the police were not looking for a black man prior to Amanda's accusation against Patrick. We can now cross that possibility off the list and the conspiracy loses another vital component.
 
I take it from these that we're all agreed that the police were not looking for a black man prior to Amanda's accusation against Patrick. We can now cross that possibility off the list and the conspiracy loses another vital component.

Generally people from North Africa have a lighter skin tone but that also varies quite a bit from individual to individual. It is clear they were not looking for someone with a similar skin complexion to Amanda and Raffaele.
 
Look at the time of the second statement I posted on page five. Or read my last post in the 'Libel' thread.
The voluntary statement of 5:45? How does that prove that the interview/interrogation continued after 1:45?

Would you elaborate on what you believe the ILE version of events is?
No

Dunno where you'd even get such 'evidence,' though it would strike me as hilarious if the blueprints to police stations in Italy were available online. A nice helping hand for the next jailbreak!
Nope... didnt ask for blueprints. Once again a figment of your imagination. Try a little harder next time.

At least I know where the interrogation 'defense' dead-ends now, a demand for wiring schematics of secure locations. Incidentally, I'm curious, imagine for a moment I could lay my hands on such information, what would be the next request? :)
Weak... very weak.
 
Generally people from North Africa have a lighter skin tone but that also varies quite a bit from individual to individual. It is clear they were not looking for someone with a similar skin complexion to Amanda and Raffaele.

It´s also clear they weren´t looking for someone with Patricks complexion.
 
Generally people from North Africa have a lighter skin tone but that also varies quite a bit from individual to individual. It is clear they were not looking for someone with a similar skin complexion to Amanda and Raffaele.

It´s also clear they weren´t looking for someone with Patricks complexion.

Besides, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

The original claim was that ILE was looking for a black man prior to 06 NOV 2007. Not only is there no evidence of that from ILE but none of the news stories provide much detail about just who they were looking for prior to that date.

If the conspiracists have dropped their original claim then what is the new claim that we're going to examine? One claim at a time; once one is debunked then let's articulate a fresh one and see how that one flies.
 
Here is Italian authorities confronting a whole boat load of North African Immigrants. They have a very similar skin tone that Patrick has.

[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_383964d6827cca9a1a.jpg[/URL]

http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2009/05/italy-patrol-boats-given-to-libya-to.html

Do you have any evidence that a Congolese would be called a "North African"? Do you understand why Italians might use the term "North African" as a mark of distinction between Arabic-looking people and black people?
 

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