The Marijuana Thread

[pipelineaudio]

kids reason just fine.

There is a difference between reasoning and conforming.

Most people are conformist idiots, even most people on our skeptics board I'd wager. If the trend is to smoke pot, the conformists will or will at least try to, and if thats not possible will at least venerate the culture, with "420" written all over their junk

Kids built well enough to be less in conformity's grasp see the stoners not doing much, or not going very far in the things they do try and usually decide its not in their game plan. They can reason thru that little bit no problem at all

If your kids are too stupid to think for themselves, expect a lot of other troubles as well

 

[slingblade]

kids reason just fine.

There is a difference between reasoning and conforming.

Most people are conformist idiots, even most people on our skeptics board I'd wager. If the trend is to smoke pot, the conformists will or will at least try to, and if thats not possible will at least venerate the culture, with "420" written all over their junk

Kids built well enough to be less in conformity's grasp see the stoners not doing much, or not going very far in the things they do try and usually decide its not in their game plan. They can reason thru that little bit no problem at all

If your kids are too stupid to think for themselves, expect a lot of other troubles as well

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/family/350-850/350-850.html

II. Cognitive Development:

What Is It?
Most adults recognize that teens have better thinking skills than younger youth. These advances in thinking can be divided into several areas:

Developing advanced reasoning skills. Advanced reasoning skills include the ability to think about multiple options and possibilities. It includes a more logical thought process and the ability to think about things hypothetically. It involves asking and answering the question, "what if...?".

Developing abstract thinking skills. Abstract thinking means thinking about things that cannot be seen, heard, or touched. Examples include things like faith, trust, beliefs and spirituality.

Developing the ability to think about thinking in a process known as "meta-cognition." Meta-cognition allows individuals to think about how they feel and what they are thinking. It involves being able to think about how one is perceived by others. It can also be used to develop strategies, also known as mnemonic devices, for improving learning. Remembering the notes on the lines of a music staff (e, g, b, d, and f) through the phrase "every good boy does fine" is an example of such a mnemonic device.

How Do These Changes Affect Teens?

Teens demonstrate a heightened level of self-consciousness. Teens tend to believe that everyone is as concerned with their thoughts and behaviors as they are. This leads teens to believe that they have an "imaginary audience" of people who are always watching them.

Teens tend to believe that no one else has ever experienced similar feelings and emotions. They may become overly dramatic in describing things that are upsetting to them. They may say things like "You'll never understand," or "My life is ruined!"

Teens tend to exhibit the "it can't happen to me" syndrome also known as a "personal fable." This belief causes teens to take unnecessary risks like drinking and driving ("I won't crash this car"), having unprotected sex (I can't possibly get pregnant), or smoking (I can't possibly get cancer").

Teens tend to become very cause-oriented. Their activism is related to the ability to think about abstract concepts. After reading about cruelty to animals a teen may become a vegetarian and a member of "People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals" (P.E.T.A.). Another teen may become active in "Green Peace" or "Save the Whales" campaigns.

Teens tend to exhibit a "justice" orientation. They are quick to point out inconsistencies between adults' words and their actions. They have difficulty seeing shades of gray. They see little room for error.

Believe me or not, I care not.

But you will notice the word "developing." This word means the process is not yet complete in an adolescent. And this is the way the majority of teens think, because that's what the brain tends to do at that age and stage.

"Stupid" does not enter into it. Even bright kids often think in these ways.

 

[BPSCG]

Okay, the following is where the discussion drove off into the ditch:

You think lying to children about drug use prevents them from abusing drugs? You think that telling children that pot and heroine are both incredibly dangerous and addictive is morally acceptable?

For starts, the drug is heroin. Princess Leia is a "heroine."

Now, please show me where I - or anyone else in this thread - argued that children should be lied to about drugs.

Please show me where I - or anyone else in this thread - argued that it's morally acceptable to tell children that pot and heroin are both incredibly dangerous and addictive.

For some reason, steverino and slingblade both picked up on this fallacious meme:

So what you are saying is that, assuming you have young children yourself, you are putting your stamp of approval on their using illegal drugs?

The question isn't one of putting the stamp of approval on using illegal drugs. the question is one of society's putting the official stamp of approval on drugs that alter one's ability to think straight.

Saying pot is an equivalent drug can be harmful, however, because it is not an equivalent drug to heroin.

And again, I don't believe that anyone here has made the claim that it is remotely as dangerous as heroin.

And if your kids ever take a toke and don't die, don't commit a crime, and even pass a test while high, they WILL NOT believe what you say about heroin.

Correct. Which is why you shouldn't lie to kids about dope, even if you were getting high seven days a week when you were younger.

Let's keep the discussion straight, people. What are the arguments for legalization? What are the arguments against it? What are the arguments for keeping it criminal? What are the arguments against? Then weigh the arguments, and decide whether society is better off legalizing it or keeping it illegal.

 

[BPSCG]

Okay, I'm coming around to the legalization side, but with a big caveat.

I think that if it's legalized, the number of users will not change significantly. Both Mrs. BPSCG and I have used it in the past, but neither of us would use it again if it were legal; I suspect most of our friends would be similarly inclined.

My biggest concern is that it would lead to more impaired people on the highways.

People who don't drive drunk refrain for two main reasons:

• They're afraid of getting killed, and/or;
• They're afraid of getting caught.

It's the second reason I want to address here.People often don't drive after drinking, even when they think they'd probably be okay, because if they got caught, the results would be disastrous. Even if one doesn't get convicted of DWI, getting the charges dropped or reduced can cost a mountain in legal fees and do terrible things to your auto insurance premiums. The police can pretty much nail you, because state laws are quite specific about what constitutes DWI, and breathalyzer and blood tests can be damning evidence.

We all know that 0.08% BAC is legally intoxicated just about everywhere in the U.S. But what's the legal limit for driving with marijuana in your bloodstream? Anyone? Anyone?

I didn't think so.

And what's the marijuanic equivalent of a roadside breathalyzer test? Anyone? Anyone?

There has to be a standard of what constitutes DWI/DUI for marijuana. And there has to be a way of telling, quickly and accurately, whether or not a person has crossed that threshold.

Otherwise, those people whose only DWI/DUI reservation is getting caught would have nothing to fear.

"Want a beer?" "No thanks, I'm driving. But I'll have another joint, if you don't mind."

Standards?

 

[slingblade]

We all know that 0.08% BAC is legally intoxicated just about everywhere in the U.S. But what's the legal limit for driving with marijuana in your bloodstream? Anyone? Anyone?

Any.

Currently, if you test positive for marijuana, you have violated the law. It doesn't matter that it can take from 2 to 4 weeks to leave your system, which means you may not have been impaired at all at the time.

And what's the marijuanic equivalent of a roadside breathalyzer test? Anyone? Anyone?

There isn't one, that I know of. Not "roadside." You pee in a cup, or you give a blood sample. It takes a little time to get results.

There has to be a standard of what constitutes DWI/DUI for marijuana. And there has to be a way of telling, quickly and accurately, whether or not a person has crossed that threshold.

At the moment, the threshold is the illegality of the substance. You aren't supposed to have ANY in your body, so if you do, even a minimal amount, you have broken the law.

Otherwise, those people whose only DWI/DUI reservation is getting caught would have nothing to fear.

"Want a beer?" "No thanks, I'm driving. But I'll have another joint, if you don't mind."

Standards?

Beats me. We know the relationship between body type, height and weight, and the number and type of drinks you have. Many studies have been done. Some (less than purely scientific) have even been televised.

"We're going to get these 3 men and 3 women drunk on purpose and let them try to drive in the parking lot!" kind of thing.

But since traceable marijuana stays in your body, blood, and fat for a period of days, possibly even weeks.....

Beats all hell out of me how we'd know if you are currently too impaired to drive, or just smoked a joint three weeks ago, based on medical tests.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Believe me or not, I care not.

But you will notice the word "developing." This word means the process is not yet complete in an adolescent. And this is the way the majority of teens think, because that's what the brain tends to do at that age and stage.

"Stupid" does not enter into it. Even bright kids often think in these ways.

Stick a poker in a fire till its red hot. Poke a teen with it

Now ask the teen if he'd like another poke

You might be surprised by the response, I wont

Now show 10 "cool teens" getting poked with the hot poker and saying "coooooooooool"

Offer the same teen another poke

You might be surprised by the response, I wont

 

[BPSCG]

Any.

Currently, if you test positive for marijuana, you have violated the law. It doesn't matter that it can take from 2 to 4 weeks to leave your system, which means you may not have been impaired at all at the time.

Right, okay, but what should it be, if marijuana possession and use are legal?

 

[steverino]

Please show me where I - or anyone else in this thread - argued that it's morally acceptable to tell children that pot and heroin are both incredibly dangerous and addictive.

For some reason, steverino and slingblade both picked up on this fallacious meme: (equating heroin with pot)

BEEPS- I think there was a post or two where Strathmeyer talked about the organization DARE, and that drug education and its warnings in grade schools in general lumps all illegal drugs together. Then a kid has to sift through the BS...IOW-Shop lifting and car theft are BOTH crimes. Sure they are, but, you know.

For the record, I took a couple hits off a joint 3 times last year (not the same joint!) and it was fun for the simple reason it was illegal and therefore taboo. Anecdotal, so shoot me.

 

[skeptifem]

True, but if marijuana is legal, is the buying and selling of it still considered "drug money?" More people would smoke more quantities of it. But it would be a lot less expensive. Also, for all we know at this point, the "marijuana packs of smokes" may be imported from south of the border, or Asia. So by legallizing marijuana, it is possible there would be less, not more, money circulating domestically.

its possible, but just like liquor people will prefer a brand and it may or may not be american. At least it wont be going to criminals directly like it is now, people who deal lots of drugs inside and outside the us are much more likely to be involved in other types of crime than regular business people.


about cancer patients- my friend had cancer when i was in high school, i thought it was kind of crappy she had to take thc in a pill, because its supposed to help you not throw up- but you have to swallow it? How impractical. she barfed up almost everything that went into her mouth anyway. im down with an inhaler- but i am pretty sure thats essentially what a vaporizor does, and stoners have been using those for years.

 

[Skibum]

I


And what's the marijuanic equivalent of a roadside breathalyzer test? Anyone? Anyone?

There are saliva test kits which test for Delta-9-THC, if the test comes back positive it means you've smoked within the last 4-6 hours.

 

[clarsct]

As for the lethality of alcohol withdrawal:

delirium tremens

, hallucinatory episodes that may occur during withdrawal from chronic alcoholism, popularly known as the DTs. An episode of delirium tremens is usually preceded by disturbed sleep and irritability, and generally takes several days to develop. The patient may experience sweating and increases in heart rate and body temperature, as well as hallucinations, tremors, and convulsions. In severe cases, delirium tremens may lead to hypothermia, cardiovascular collapse, and death. Delirium tremens can be treated, and even prevented, by the injection of fairly large doses of glucose, thiamine (vitamin B1), and insulin, and the continued administration of fluids (sodium chloride and sodium lactate) and the B vitamins. The condition is related to the abrupt drop in blood alcohol level after drinking ceases. Tranquilizers, sedatives, and anticonvulsants are also used in treatment.Sources=Sources | 16

Bolding mine

from here:
http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Delerium+tremens


Alcohol is the only drug that brings about this condition.


Another thought on society:

I am hearing many posters speak of a 'societal stamp of approval' or some such nonsense.

Are you people serious?

MJ use is widespread. You would have to search long and hard to find any solid evidence that people attach a stigma to such use, of any sort. You would also have to provide some good evidence that MJ use is associated in any way with social failure, or the idea that people who use MJ cannot be/are not productive members of society.

All this is aside from this idea:
One person cannot tell another how they ought to live their life.
Can 100 people tell a person how they ought to live their life?
1000?
10000000000000?


Where do we draw a line? If the person harms no one else, then what have we to say about it?

Also, if you wish to speak of the social ills as far as health costs, et cetera, let's look at the increase in health costs of MJ to the general public in the form of overdoses, ER visits, et cetera.

$0

There are NO reports of MJ overdose in the world literature. The toxicity is incredibly low.

Compare to Alcohol. I leave this as an exercise to the student, as google had pages upon pages of evidence for this one.

I would conclude that, at the least, Mj use is no more a social ill than drinking, or gambling, both of which are legal, in some form. (Your state DOES have a lottery, right? Bingo at the church? Riverboat casinos?)

The REAL social ill happens when a group of people makes up arbitrary rules and tries to force others to live by them. Like religion.

 

[Dancing David]

OK, Strathmeyer, but can a kid stoned on pot face challanges and master them through hard work and persistance?

Uh huh, get a little closer to the asymptote there huh?

Lets see, if we legalise marijuana that is condoning it's use by minors, yup.

Sure is easy for you to get all bent out of shape, what harm does mj have on adults that isn't still less than the effects of alcohol?

 

[Dancing David]

So what you are saying is that, assuming you have young children yourself, you are putting your stamp of approval on their using illegal drugs?

Uh huh, what is that a quote from Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh.

Do you lie to your children.

Why if I tell my child the truth about heroin (very addictive and dangerous), alcohol (addictive and not so dangerous) and marijuana (not so addictive and not so dangerous)
and then say, i don't want you to use alcohol or marijuana, i am telling them to use marijuana and other drugs, yup.

You are some sort of demagouge, I used to think you at least reasoned your arguments yourself, now I wonder.

You are about as hysterical and uninformed on this issue as someone can get. BTW Reader's Digest often plants articles so they can quote them and edits people out of context. When did reader's Digest become a peer reviewed journal? Even high school kids know you aren't supposed to quote a source more than three years old, unless it is to establish the history of a topic. Use Reader's Digest, get a D on your paper. Yup.

 

[Dancing David]

My Answer (drumroll please)...No. But it is not lying to tell your kids that smoking marijuana, in some cases, has its hazards.

And what are those hazards, published in which journals and based on which research?

Show us the money! Where is the evidence? data please?

One is more harmful than the other. Evidence of pot having certain dangers is credible. Evidence that heroin has certain dangers is incredible.

Most people do not question the danger of heroin.

Where is theis documentation of marijuana having certain dangers.
data, reseach and journal please.

Did you know that cigarettes are as addictive as heroin. meth and cocaine are more addictive, but only barely more addictive than cigarettes.

Aldohol has plenty of actual documented damage and harm to people.

Where is the evidence on marijuana? You say it is there, show us the data please. It is less carcinogenic than tobacco, and less damaging than alcohol. It should not be used by people trying to learn and retain information, it should not be used by minors.

Did you know that alcohol is the highest substance of abuse in grade school children?

You see the Shibolleth of marijuana but you are not looking at the data.

 

[Dancing David]

kids reason just fine.

There is a difference between reasoning and conforming.

Most people are conformist idiots, even most people on our skeptics board I'd wager. If the trend is to smoke pot, the conformists will or will at least try to, and if thats not possible will at least venerate the culture, with "420" written all over their junk

Kids built well enough to be less in conformity's grasp see the stoners not doing much, or not going very far in the things they do try and usually decide its not in their game plan.

i hate to burst your bubble but the biggest stoner I knew in high school is a rocket scientist.

i do not condone the use of marijuana by minors. I do not support the blanket legalization of illegal drugs.

But alcohol damages many more lives than marijuana, if there is a rising tide of teen deaths in automobiles, most are from being toxic on alcohol.

They can reason thru that little bit no problem at all

If your kids are too stupid to think for themselves, expect a lot of other troubles as well

I like the 'Rise Above' ad campaign, it is tremendous, but they leave out the substance with the most established damage to our youth :alcohol. Where are the ad campaigns to stop teen alcohol use?

 

[Dancing David]

Okay, I'm coming around to the legalization side, but with a big caveat.

I think that if it's legalized, the number of users will not change significantly. Both Mrs. BPSCG and I have used it in the past, but neither of us would use it again if it were legal; I suspect most of our friends would be similarly inclined.

My biggest concern is that it would lead to more impaired people on the highways.

i agree.

People who don't drive drunk refrain for two main reasons:

• They're afraid of getting killed, and/or;
• They're afraid of getting caught.

It's the second reason I want to address here.People often don't drive after drinking, even when they think they'd probably be okay, because if they got caught, the results would be disastrous. Even if one doesn't get convicted of DWI, getting the charges dropped or reduced can cost a mountain in legal fees and do terrible things to your auto insurance premiums. The police can pretty much nail you, because state laws are quite specific about what constitutes DWI, and breathalyzer and blood tests can be damning evidence.

We all know that 0.08% BAC is legally intoxicated just about everywhere in the U.S. But what's the legal limit for driving with marijuana in your bloodstream? Anyone? Anyone?

there is no dose related impairment in marijuana, one dose can imapir one person and not impair another, this is a huge problem.

I didn't think so.

And what's the marijuanic equivalent of a roadside breathalyzer test? Anyone? Anyone?

Again the impairment of marijuana is not dose related, a stoner can tolerate much higher doses than a newbie, and individuals vary in thier tolerance.

There has to be a standard of what constitutes DWI/DUI for marijuana. And there has to be a way of telling, quickly and accurately, whether or not a person has crossed that threshold.

maybe a time raction study might be effective, but impaired judgement is another issue.

Otherwise, those people whose only DWI/DUI reservation is getting caught would have nothing to fear.

"Want a beer?" "No thanks, I'm driving. But I'll have another joint, if you don't mind."

Standards?

The suggestion a friend of mine had is that there be a user's liscense, if you get caugyt driving without a user's liscense then there is a large fine. But this is not a solution. Due to the nature of mj, the impairment is not directly dose related, there is not an effective breathalyzer test.

 

[deadrose]

What about field tests for (gosh) impairment? Simple to administer, will catch an impaired driver whether they're impaired from alcohol, marijuana, lack of sleep, cold medicine, or perhaps even stupidity (I wish). If you want to make it less subjective, have them captured on video, as a lot of departments are doing with all traffic stops. To me the issue isn't what the driver has done that makes them impaired, it's the fact that they *are* impaired. Long-term alcoholics can actually be seriously impaired, iirc, without having as high a BAC as other people, simply because their livers are so shot that they no longer detoxify the alcohol well, providing much higher levels of impairment from one or two drinks.

Heidi

 

[Skibum]

What about field tests for (gosh) impairment? Simple to administer, will catch an impaired driver whether they're impaired from alcohol, marijuana, lack of sleep, cold medicine, or perhaps even stupidity (I wish).

IMO, it's not a good idea to volunteer to take field sobriety tests even if you are sober including the PBT/PAS.

If you are drunk/impared you are just giving them further evidence.

If you have been drinking but are not over the legal limit they can still be used to convit you.

If you are sober, there is still a good chance you will fail anyways (I've seen figures of up to a 50 % failure rate, even when all the people being tested hadn't had anything to drink)

 

[steverino]

Uh huh, what is that a quote from Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh.

Do you lie to your children.

Why if I tell my child the truth about heroin (very addictive and dangerous), alcohol (addictive and not so dangerous) and marijuana (not so addictive and not so dangerous)
and then say, i don't want you to use alcohol or marijuana, i am telling them to use marijuana and other drugs, yup.

You are some sort of demagouge, I used to think you at least reasoned your arguments yourself, now I wonder.

You are about as hysterical and uninformed on this issue as someone can get. BTW Reader's Digest often plants articles so they can quote them and edits people out of context. When did reader's Digest become a peer reviewed journal? Even high school kids know you aren't supposed to quote a source more than three years old, unless it is to establish the history of a topic. Use Reader's Digest, get a D on your paper. Yup.

I have absolutely no clue what you are saying here.

 

[steverino]

But alcohol damages many more lives than marijuana, if there is a rising tide of teen deaths in automobiles, most are from being toxic on alcohol.

Right. And if we legalize marijuana, it will be cheaper, and wider spread, and it, too, like alcohol, will take its toll on teens. Why do we need one more health crisis?