The Marijuana Conspiracy

This whole hemp thing is a strawman argument. No hemp proponent would be as strident as those posting here, unless they are really arguing for marijuana legalization. Which is fine, and something I support. However, cloaking in this "man keeping hemp down" argument is silly and counter-productive.

Many, many countries, including Canada produce this stuff. Not much is happening. Why? Because hemp is not a miracle crop, or even a mainstream agricultural staple. It's niche. It's niche in China and it's niche in Germany. It would be niche in the USA, were we to produce it. It is not something that the world is lacking, to fulfill any major need.

Of course, the real reason we are having this discussion, is that many advocates want to tie this into a 'conspiracy' about pot. Please have that discussion separately; it would be more effective. Some of us are old enough to remember when that almost got legalized under Carter. It's not so far fetched.
 
This whole hemp thing is a strawman argument. No hemp proponent would be as strident as those posting here, unless they are really arguing for marijuana legalization. Which is fine, and something I support. However, cloaking in this "man keeping hemp down" argument is silly and counter-productive.

That is ridiculous. They are two completely different subjects that have been melded by the Drug Warriors. Can you please explain your position? One is an agriculture product with no drug value, and the other is a drug legalization issue.

They are not the same. At all. While some may/do try to make them the same, I do not. I would think the critical thinkers here would be able to separate the issues. The argument is not silly and counter-productive. It is exactly what is happening. As has been shown.

Many, many countries, including Canada produce this stuff. Not much is happening. Why? Because hemp is not a miracle crop, or even a mainstream agricultural staple. It's niche. It's niche in China and it's niche in Germany. It would be niche in the USA, were we to produce it. It is not something that the world is lacking, to fulfill any major need.

AT this point yes.

Of course, the real reason we are having this discussion, is that many advocates want to tie this into a 'conspiracy' about pot. Please have that discussion separately; it would be more effective. Some of us are old enough to remember when that almost got legalized under Carter. It's not so far fetched.

I'm that old, but you are confusing the issues again. Hemp is not pot. Could you please try to understand that?

MolBasser
 
If I may be so bold as to ask...

Why do you care?

ETA - Fixed this for you:
They are two completely different subjects that have been melded by the Drug Warriors pro-marijuana legalization crowd
 
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Because I'm a libertarian. I believe in free markets. This is a market that is being artificially held down because of "drug" fears of an industrial crop.

It is big government at its worst. Using fear and lies to keep an honest product off of the shelves.

And your fix is incorrect. The reason it is being held down is drug fear by the Government, not the people who want to grow the crop.

How is that hard to understand?

If it isn't the government and drug fears that are keeping this crop from being grown, what/who is?

MolBasser
 
It's not 'drug fears.' As was explained to you above, they banned the whole genus. Which included hemp. As was explained to you above, growers of hemp could enhance the THC yield over time, so it's not an irrational ban.

The people now advocating legalization of hemp, a product with a niche market and little commercial viability, are those who really want to legalize marijuana (a product with vast appeal and huge commercial viability). Why not focus on that, rather than wasting time and effort on a product that virtually no one cares about?

ETA - as a Libertarian (more or less) myself, I can think of about 100 things more important than hemp. Which is why I asked why you care.
 
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It's not 'drug fears.' As was explained to you above, they banned the whole genus. Which included hemp. As was explained to you above, growers of hemp could enhance the THC yield over time, so it's not an irrational ban.

And as was explained to you, your ignoring not withsatanding, is that this is an illogical fear due to the time it would take, the way the plant would be grown and the fact that there would be no point as thousands of better strains for drugs exist. Why do you ignore this? Growing industrial hemp is in no way even closely related to growing marijuana for drug value. Please educate yourself on the differences.
The people now advocating legalization of hemp, a product with a niche market and little commercial viability, are those who really want to legalize marijuana (a product with vast appeal and huge commercial viability). Why not focus on that, rather than wasting time and effort on a product that virtually no one cares about?

What? Where do you get your data for this? This is pure uneducated fearmongering. Are the canadians, germans, or chinese (or any other country that grows hemp) all freaking back- crossing and breeding for drugs? No, of course not, it is not the point. They are breeding for better fiber or seed production.

Holy jeebus.....
ETA - as a Libertarian (more or less) myself, I can think of about 100 things more important than hemp. Which is why I asked why you care.

As a libertarian, you should be interested in free markets and reason. Apparently the reason part escapes you.

MolBasser
 
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It's not 'drug fears.' As was explained to you above, they banned the whole genus. Which included hemp. As was explained to you above, growers of hemp could enhance the THC yield over time, so it's not an irrational ban.

How can you type that with a straight keyboard?

"It's not drug fears" followed 2 sentences later with "growers of hemp could enhance the thc yield"

?

If it isn't (but really is) drug fears, what is keeping it illegal?

The fact that the market is "niche" is irrelevant. There is a market. If you were a libertarian, you would like that market to be exploited by those that wish to make money at it.

Companies don't sell too many x-ray diffractometers either. It is a niche market. With no drug value. And we let them sell those intruments.....

There are tons of niche markets. A market doesn't have to be multi-billion dollar to be legitimate.

MolBasser
 
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a general point - please take a deep breath before answering. no rush.

And as was explained to you, your ignoring not withsatanding, is that this is an illogical fear due to the time it would take, the way the plant would be grown and the fact that there would be no point as thousands of better strains for drugs exist. Why do you ignore this? Growing industrial hemp is in no way even closely related to growing marijuana for drug value. Please educate yourself on the differences.
At the very least, it would have to be regulated to prevent this from occurring, no? Coca-Cola buys coca leaves. Their growth is regulated. Do you understand?

Molbasser said:
What? Where do you get your data for this? This is pure uneducated fearmongering. Are the canadians, germans, or chinese (or any other country that grows hemp) all freaking back- crossing and breeding for drugs? No, of course not, it is not the point. They are breeding for better fiber or seed production.
OK, I'm going to diagram my sentence for you. Then, you can reply to what I actually said.

me said:
The people [SUBJECT] now advocating [VERB] legalization of hemp [OBJECT], a product with a niche market and little commercial viability [PHRASE DESCRIBING OBJECT], are those who really want to legalize marijuana (a product with vast appeal and huge commercial viability). Why not focus on that, rather than wasting time and effort on a product that virtually no one cares about?

The people advocating hemp (i.e., the subject of my sentence) are really in favor of marijuana legalization. They argue hemp as a way to distract from what they really want. I was not describing current hemp manufacturers "back-crossing and breeding for drugs." I was not describing hemp growers in any way. I was describing pro-hemp advocates in the USA. They really want legal pot. Do you understand my point now?

Molbasser said:
As a libertarian, you should be interested in free markets and reason. Apparently the reason part escapes you.

MolBasser
1 - I would appreciate it if you would watch your tone here.
2 - Again, perhaps you could respond to my actual point. (I can think of 100 things more important than hemp) As a Libertarian, off the top of my head:

  • Tax reform
  • Gun laws
  • Speech codes
  • Hate crime
  • Insurance deregulation
  • Political corruption
  • FDA issues
  • Sex offender registry

Hemp is just not on my libertarian radar.

Again, could you please answer my question? Why do you care about hemp? Why are we discussing hemp in a thread entitled "the marijuana conspiracy?" Personally, why do you care?
 
Again, could you please answer my question? Why do you care about hemp? Why are we discussing hemp in a thread entitled "the marijuana conspiracy?" Personally, why do you care?

I answered it. It is a libertarian issue for me. I have others. It isn't the only thing that I worry about as a libertarian.

Personally, I think things like the Patriot Act are more important, but that does not mean that I cannot discuss others. Start a thread about any of the issues that concern you and I will post on them.

My tone exists because you are constantly denying the "drug" issue of HEMP growing, and it is frustrating for me. You claim in one paragraph that it isn't a drug issue, but it is a drug issue. That is not the way to go about arguing your point, in my opinion.

The people advocating hemp (i.e., the subject of my sentence) are really in favor of marijuana legalization.

These are two separate issues. As I have pointed out to you numerous times. And you wonder at my frustration.

Maybe YOU should tone down the condescension a bit also with your sentence diagram. I understood perfectly what you wrote and wrote a reasonable response to it. Let's see your data showing that all the people who want hemp legalized really are actually trying to use that to legalize marijuana the drug....

I'm sure the people who wrote the reports on hemp commercial viability for the states were just doing that so they could grow drugs.....

MolBasser
 
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Oh, and please answer my question: If it isn't drug fears (as you have claimed) then what is keeping it illegal?

Thanks.

ETA: And just to add. If I wanted to legalize marijuana as a drug, pushing for industrial hemp would be an exceedingly poor way to go about it.

MolBasser
 
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This is the whole point of the thread. It should be legal. Certain elements of the government more than others and certain individuals more than others are making sure this doesn't happen.

Let me guess they meet in a dark room with black robes and plot against the development of hemp.

Regarding breeding back THC, do you have any idea how many generations it would take to do this? Do you know anything about drug marijuana and how it is farmed vs. hemp? My gosh.....

My gosh, my gosh...sigh...sigh...this certainly makes me look mature. Apparently I know more than you do about the length of plant generations and botany.

It would be time consuming...

Yet not impossible.

...and stupid to "breed back" THC levels. Just grow drug strains.

Not really if you could produce a marijuana substitute with the same active ingredient...unregulated and 100% legal.

The method of cultivation, harvest, and market are totally different. It is a red herring to throw the "but they could make it into drugs somehow" argument.

No the actual red herring is bringing up "cultivation, harvest, and market.." as if that would somehow effect the outcome. Also it is an explanation of why your "hemp free market" can never happen as long as marijuana is illegal and while we have a USDA for that matter.

It just doesn't fly biologically, or agriculturally.

Write it as much as you want, but that doesn't make it true to anyone who has taken even a passing glance at such cutting edge research as that of Gregor Johann Mendel.

No, it hasn't.

1. because you have not refuted the (just for one) DEAs interest in keeping hemp illegal due to the amount of funds it receives for the drug war.

How much money does the DEA make from blocking Hemp imports? Seriously, how often do you see large busts of hemp shipments coming in from Canada. Please...this is your most tired argument.

2. There are no free hemp markets. They are all regulated to the point that it financially interferes with the advancement of the product.

There are no free markets..PERIOD. Specifically there are no free agricultural markets. They are all regulated, including the type of seeds that can be used, the product that can be sold, and who it can be sold to. USDA is an example of a regulatory body over all food in the United States.

3. No one said it was going to revolutionize an economy (at least not me). All I have stated is that it is a quality product that is underutilized and that given the proper free market conditions a farmer, so inclined, could (and should be able to) make money growing hemp.

Well actually you came into this thread lecturing us about how we responded to the original poster who claimed hemp would revolutionize the world. As far as farming hemp...no one here is saying no...it just won't be revolutionary.

See above. This is a red herring argument given the agricultural differences.

See above as to why you are wrong, and why science needs to become your friend.

Well, that part is regulated in canada with the fact that farmers can't use their own seed and so they cannot breed the thc back into it, but you clearly show a lack of knowledge of how long this would take. How completely different and OBVIOUSLY (you know, to the man) the difference is and how stupid it would be considering that there are literally thousands of strains available now. But they don't look anything like hemp. And hemp on steroids has no chance to compete with real drug marijuana.

First every plant is going to come under regulation if you wish to grow it commercially, and so blaming the lack of technological development based on that is false. HENCE...your argument to that effect is debunked.

That would be fine, but there should be no need to license the farmer, nor deny him the right to use his own seeds. I'm fine with testing the final fiber for THC, although....it would sort of be pointless. No one smoke hemp fiber. No one smokes marijuana fiber. That just isn't how it works.

Oh gorsh you reckon that if'n you can't smoke thems fibers that marijuana ain't bein' smoke at all. Now you are trying to be really obtuse, you know that right?

But never mind, because what you want is the 100% complete deregulation of all agriculture in the United States, and no thank you. Oh also you effectively contradicted yourself in that above paragraph, but I'll let you figure out how...but be honest because I will quote it back to you later if you aren't.
 
My gosh, my gosh...sigh...sigh...this certainly makes me look mature. Apparently I know more than you do about the length of plant generations and botany.

Do tell!

This should be interesting.

MolBasser
 
See above as to why you are wrong, and why science needs to become your friend.

Science is my friend. I have a PhD in Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology.

So, I think I know where I speak here.

I know you people like to plaster a "kook" label on posters. However, you sometimes need to be careful.

MolBasser
 
Oh gorsh you reckon that if'n you can't smoke thems fibers that marijuana ain't bein' smoke at all. Now you are trying to be really obtuse, you know that right?

:facepalm:

You can't possibly be serious?

This is the whole point. You all make it out like it is a drug issue. IT ISN'T.

Can we please, please get past the paranoia?

MolBasser
 
Very true. So why do you think that the hemp industry is championed mostly by those who want MJ legal as a drug and not by a wider cross section of society?


Most people are effed up by "Just say no!"?

I dunno.

Seems silly to me.

MolBasser
 
Write it as much as you want, but that doesn't make it true to anyone who has taken even a passing glance at such cutting edge research as that of Gregor Johann Mendel.

:facepalm:

I don't even know where to start with this. OMFG. Seriously.....

OK (deep breaths, this guy has never grown dope)....

You have NO idea how either of these crops are grown, do you? Do you even know what part of the plant is harvested for the crops? Please let me know that you do....

MolBasser
 
This is the whole point of the thread. It should be legal. Certain elements of the government more than others and certain individuals more than others are making sure this doesn't happen.

I don't honestly believe that anyone in the US government with any real power cares one way or the other about hemp. They just aren't going to go out of their way to make hemp legal if there's no public or industrial pressure for it.

Knowing it's illegal and not caring isn't the same as actively making sure it stays illegal.
 
Science is my friend. I have a PhD in Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology.

So, I think I know where I speak here.

I know you people like to plaster a "kook" label on posters. However, you sometimes need to be careful.

MolBasser
Well then provide proof, and don't worry about doing it here. You can go ahead and contact a moderator, and they can verify. Nevertheless I am not going to just take your word for it. Because you are trying to claim that the THC level, including IN THE LEAVES, of hemp cannot be increased through selective breeding. You have no response for that, but to pull out pathetic litte things like "sigh" and "my gosh" and "OK (deep breath...)". You asked for a reason, and reasons are given.

And you may not be a kook, but you sure as hell are acting like one with your insistance on some shadowy conspiracy.

But if it turns out you have the Ph.D. I will 100% drop the SIDE ISSUE, and focus on further pointing out that the main crux of your argument about hemp not being viable because of a lack of technology because it is illegal despite the fact that it is legal in other countries but still regulated even though other regulated crops still find a way to be viable...has been debunked.

EDIT. BTW, you can reply through using the "Go Advanced" button and consolidate your posts to me into one.
 
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