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Ed The Madeleine McCann Case.

Vixen said:
Someone involved in the investigation of the case recently offered the suggestion Maddie woke up during the night and wandered off to look for her parents. Gerry and Kate McCann reacted with great anger and insisted that 'someone had taken her from the apartment'.

How can they be so sure? Or is the story 'someone has taken her' to assuage their feelings of guilt at leaving their kids alone with an unlocked door or worse, to cover up the fact they know she wasn't taken, but that has become their mantra, for whatever reason.

If you recall, Kate raised the alarm by running back to her party and shouting, 'They've taken her, they've taken her'.
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Ths has always been an aspect of the case that I have struggled with. I know, from my own two sproglets that in such a situation, I and the wife at the time would alternate. Sometimes a handy volunteer aunt/uncle would substitute in. It would have been unthinkable to leave them without adult supervision. And the favour was returned. I stood watch over various nieces and nephews in my turn. Boring as hell, while you know everyone else is partying somewhere, but that is what you do as a parent.

But these pair were not Joe Pleb like me, they were both doctors. If anyone should have known better, they should have.
 
Matthew Best said:
Really?

UK law says parents "can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised ‘in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health’."

I would have thought they would have a good case for saying that leaving a child sleeping while checking on her every half hour wasn't likely to cause injury. In fact it was very unlikely to do so, even if was a possibility, and it did actually do so in this case.

I don't know about laws in other countries.
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I'm amazed to find UK doesn't. NZ, USA & plenty of other countries do, including Portugal, apparently.
 
abaddon said:
Ah, that was before I signed up as a member here, but I had been a lurker. I was trying to figure out why it rang a bell. How the hell did you recall that?
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Because I had press credentials at TAM7, where she did her MDC test and I had some personal interactions with her subsequent to that.
 
Well the facts of that case are completely different to this one. That child was left alone for 14 hours, while McCann was left with her siblings for 30 minutes.

What does the law in Portugal actually say?
 
Matthew Best said:
I suspect that the main evidence they have at the moment is his purported "confession" to a friend.
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He also allegedly said to a barmaid a few years ago 'the child is dead and that is a good thing' and that 'a corpse can disappear quickly and pigs eat human flesh'.

I can understand why the German authorities believe she is dead. I don't understand how they think they know how she died without a body.
 
Gary Burton said:
He also allegedly said to a barmaid a few years ago 'the child is dead and that is a good thing' and that 'a corpse can disappear quickly and pigs eat human flesh'.

I can understand why the German authorities believe she is dead. I don't understand how they think they know how she died without a body.
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LOL That line comes from a well-known film. Millions of people around the world have expressed the view sitting in bars and pubs that, 'Maddie is dead and the body will never be found because...' [insert drunken ramblings].
 
abaddon said:
Ths has always been an aspect of the case that I have struggled with. I know, from my own two sproglets that in such a situation, I and the wife at the time would alternate. Sometimes a handy volunteer aunt/uncle would substitute in. It would have been unthinkable to leave them without adult supervision. And the favour was returned. I stood watch over various nieces and nephews in my turn. Boring as hell, while you know everyone else is partying somewhere, but that is what you do as a parent.

But these pair were not Joe Pleb like me, they were both doctors. If anyone should have known better, they should have.
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Whilst I get that a parent can make a mistake, what I find troubling is the fact Madeleine had complained the previous night, 'Why didn't you came when I was crying', according to Kate, and the owner of the apartment immediately above (Pamela Fenn IIRC) declared that on the night of the second of May 2007, she had heard a young child - not a baby - crying for a solid 1.25 hours and she was beginning to get quite worried, when the parents appear to have arrived back and the crying stopped. This witness as per her written police statement at the time claimed the child in question also shouted, 'Daddy! Daddy!'.

This makes me wonder if there was an intruder on the 2nd May casing the joint - as Brückner is known - or believed - to have done around the area and Maddie, on hearing the noise, as she was a known light sleeper became frightened and that is why she called out. It would explain her admonition to Kate the next day.
 
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Gary Burton said:
He also allegedly said to a barmaid a few years ago 'the child is dead and that is a good thing' and that 'a corpse can disappear quickly and pigs eat human flesh'.

I can understand why the German authorities believe she is dead. I don't understand how they think they know how she died without a body.
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Welcome.

You have entered a tough, uncompromising thread. Good luck.
 
Vixen said:
Someone didn't include the quote marks so blame whoever didn't include them. Clue: it was not me, for the record and right of reply.
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I see that the post in question has been retrospectively edited to fix the broken quote tag. Nevertheless, a little checking on your part would have been advisible perhaps....
 
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Vixen said:
Whilst I get that a parent can make a mistake, what I find troubling is the fact Madeleine had complained the previous night, 'Why didn't you came when I was crying', according to Kate, and the owner of the apartment immediately above (Pamela Fenn IIRC) declared that on the night of the second of May 2007, she had heard a young child - not a baby - crying for a solid 1.25 hours and she was beginning to get quite worried, when the parents appear to have arrived back and the crying stopped. This witness as per her written police statement at the time claimed the child in question also shouted, 'Daddy! Daddy!'.

This makes me wonder if there was an intruder on the 2nd May casing the joint - as Brückner is known - or believed - to have done around the area and Maddie, on hearing the noise, as she was a known light sleeper became frightened and that is why she called out. It would explain her admonition to Kate the next day.
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"is known - or believed - to have done"...... :rolleyes: (I think you mean: "is believed to have done")

I am not sure what reliable evidence exists to corroborate the McCann's claims around how regularly they (or others in their group) checked in on the children in the apartment. But in the event that there is no such evidence, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the McCanns and their friends were being somewhat "economical with the actualité" in this respect.

(And once again: the child's name is/was Madeleine. Not Maddie.)
 
other disappearances

"Police have also eyed him over three other missing children, according to the Sun — including a 6-year-old boy who in 1996 went missing in Portugal, where Madeleine had been on vacation when she disappeared.

Brückner is also a suspect in the disappearances of 16-year-old Carola Titze, who went missing while on vacation in Belgium in 1996, and Inga Gehricke, 5, who vanished in Germany in 2015... "New York Post

I have not followed this case closely; perhaps this was already well known.
EDT
The Telegraph reported on 6 June that, "Police in Germany and Belgium are yet to comment on whether Carola's death is being linked to the Madeleine investigation."
 
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Chris_Halkides said:
"Police have also eyed him over three other missing children, according to the Sun — including a 6-year-old boy who in 1996 went missing in Portugal, where Madeleine had been on vacation when she disappeared.

Brückner is also a suspect in the disappearances of 16-year-old Carola Titze, who went missing while on vacation in Belgium in 1996, and Inga Gehricke, 5, who vanished in Germany in 2015... "New York Post

I have not followed this case closely; perhaps this was already well known.
EDT
The Telegraph reported on 6 June that, "Police in Germany and Belgium are yet to comment on whether Carola's death is being linked to the Madeleine investigation."
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Even if he was linked to half the child kidnappings in Germany and Portugal, it doesn't prove he kidnapped and murdered Maddie.
 
LondonJohn said:
"is known - or believed - to have done"...... :rolleyes: (I think you mean: "is believed to have done")

I am not sure what reliable evidence exists to corroborate the McCann's claims around how regularly they (or others in their group) checked in on the children in the apartment. But in the event that there is no such evidence, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the McCanns and their friends were being somewhat "economical with the actualité" in this respect.

(And once again: the child's name is/was Madeleine. Not Maddie.)
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The hotel staff at the time didn't recall the parents checking in on the kids. In his first statement, Gerry McCann (Gerald to you) claimed he and Kate took it turns to check the kids every half hour. In his first statement he claims he went at 8:30 but subsequently changed it to 9:00ish and bumped into 'Jez' whom had played tennis with (Jeremy to you).

In his first statement Gerry claims the door was locked and he used a key to unlock it. In his subsequent statement he claims he went in via an unlocked sliding door, which is how his colleague Matthew (iirc) also looked in on the kids but not closely just that there was no noise. When Kate went there at 9:30 she says that's when she discovered Madeleine missing. In other words the 9:15 professed time that Maddie disappeared is one set by Gerry McCann.
 
Vixen said:
The hotel staff at the time didn't recall the parents checking in on the kids. In his first statement, Gerry McCann (Gerald to you) claimed he and Kate took it turns to check the kids every half hour. In his first statement he claims he went at 8:30 but subsequently changed it to 9:00ish and bumped into 'Jez' whom had played tennis with (Jeremy to you).

In his first statement Gerry claims the door was locked and he used a key to unlock it. In his subsequent statement he claims he went in via an unlocked sliding door, which is how his colleague Matthew (iirc) also looked in on the kids but not closely just that there was no noise. When Kate went there at 9:30 she says that's when she discovered Madeleine missing. In other words the 9:15 professed time that Maddie disappeared is one set by Gerry McCann.
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Well as I said, in the absence of reliable corroborating evidence from either a disinterested party (eg a member of the club's staff) or CCTV, I don't think it's unfair or improper to open the possibility that in fact the checks on the three children in the McCanns' apartment were spaced significantly further apart than the McCanns' and friends' testimonies.


Some bickering over the child's name has been sent to AAH. The point has been made, and you cannot enforce what name another member chooses to use; please do not continue with this derail from the topic.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin
 
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Matthew Best said:
Really?

UK law says parents "can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised ‘in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health’."

I would have thought they would have a good case for saying that leaving a child sleeping while checking on her every half hour wasn't likely to cause injury. In fact it was very unlikely to do so, even if was a possibility, and it did actually do so in this case.

I don't know about laws in other countries.
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From your link:

.....

  • children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
  • children under 16 should not be left alone overnight
  • babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone

...
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