The Loving God / Hell Paradox

[Pahansiri]

Eternity not in the presence of God.

I respect you believe that but it is a belief no more valid then the hell with flames or no hell at all. I asked for the TRUE definition of “hell”. There is none.



I mean no disrespect yo what you believe.

 

[Babylon Sister]

Because we would probably all be good little puppets (with no lives of our own) and praising God all the time.

That sounds suspiciously like a description of heaven

 

[TragicMonkey]

Eternity not in the presence of God.

I hope the converse isn't that Heaven is eternity in the presence of God. I mean, even the most congenial company palls after a point, and one needs time alone. I don't think I'd enjoy Heaven very much if God were always around, making conversation or blinding me with beams of glory when I'm trying to have a nap or a nice read.

 

[Darat]

I respect you believe that but it is a belief no more valid then the hell with flames or no hell at all. I asked for the TRUE definition of “hell”. There is none.



I mean no disrespect yo what you believe.

Oh I don't believe in the Christian God (or any other god I know of) and so don’t believe in the concept of heaven and hell.

However the “eternity without God” is a valid description of what hell is to many Christians (in the sect I was brought up in anyway). In other words hell is a state of being rather then a place, and since God is perfection and all that is good being without God is the worse thing that could happen to anyone, therefore hell is the lack of God.

 

[Darat]

I hope the converse isn't that Heaven is eternity in the presence of God. I mean, even the most congenial company palls after a point, and one needs time alone. I don't think I'd enjoy Heaven very much if God were always around, making conversation or blinding me with beams of glory when I'm trying to have a nap or a nice read.

Sorry if my lot have anything to do with it heaven is just being in the presence of God. I know doesn't sound much but I suppose 2000 years ago just being told you wouldn't be hungry, cold and in pain sounded a big deal.

(Plus in the third book of Callimiconidae it is said that God has monkeys to amuse the faithful.)

 

[Pahansiri]

Oh I don't believe in the Christian God (or any other god I know of) and so don’t believe in the concept of heaven and hell.

However the “eternity without God” is a valid description of what hell is to many Christians (in the sect I was brought up in anyway). In other words hell is a state of being rather then a place, and since God is perfection and all that is good being without God is the worse thing that could happen to anyone, therefore hell is the lack of God.

Yes I understand many believe that, many don't it is for all to believe as they will. But I do not find one more true then another that was my point.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Sorry if my lot have anything to do with it heaven is just being in the presence of God. I know doesn't sound much but I suppose 2000 years ago just being told you wouldn't be hungry, cold and in pain sounded a big deal.

(Plus in the third book of Callimiconidae it is said that God has monkeys to amuse the faithful.)

I'd prefer Monkey Heaven, where the faithful are left to amuse themselves, without Teacher always in the room. Regular Heaven sounds like a dull party, indeed, with an omnipotent, omnicognizant chaperone who won't let you spike the punch, sneak away into the janitor's closet, or tell dirty stories. Heck, even kindergarten is more interesting than that. What's to do? Spend eternity sipping fruit punch and making polite conversation? Ack! No wonder Satan rebelled.

 

[athon]

Damn it. This is why sleeping at night is so inconvenient; look at all these replies.

Athon

 

[athon]

Hmm. I was raised Catholic, and I have no idea whether the following is actual Catholic dogma, somebody's theory not inconsistent with Catholic dogma, or whether I just stumbled across a renegade CCD teacher or priest....but I was taught that hell isn't a place of fiery torment or picturesque punishment, but rather the state of being eternally separated from God. Like he's ignoring you, I guess. Apparently that's supposed to be pretty awful, mystically or whatever. It certainly sounds more appropriate, in the context of theology, than the rather psychologically-revealing masochist fantasy that seems to be the fanciful notions of Hell.

This is kind of my point. If Hell is simply a removal from God, then it cannot be bad if you choose that existence. If you're presented with evidence of God, and then decide 'Hey, that's who you are', then Heaven is accessible, and Hell (if Heaven is really what everybody wants) is irrelevant.

Hence the paradox of a Punitive / Loving God (Dualist Xianity).

Athon

 

[athon]

Why do we have prisons on earth? To detain those who are incapable of behaving civilly towards others, correct? Why should hell be viewed any differently?

Why do believers have to always speak in weak analogies?

So, you advocate a punitive Hell...fine with me.

God creates man to have free choice. He establishes rules to the universe in his omnipotence, both simple and complicated rules, and then biases man to break those rules using his free choice. At one extreme, it is impossible to live without breaking these rules.

He then gives no rational reason why some of those rules should be followed

This is not a random factor where God determines worth -- God creates worth because he is omnipotent. We describe Him with human attributes, and then contradict ourselves by saying we cannot possible know how He works.

Hence the ultimate contradiction. If God is not entirely Love...then I can grasp the idea and feel it is at least constructively sound.

Athon

 

[Iacchus]

Why do believers have to always speak in weak analogies?

So, you advocate a punitive Hell...fine with me.

Weak? No. If we understood that prison was the closest thing to hell on earth -- or, at least "why" we have prisons -- then perhaps we could better understand what the nature of hell is.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I compiled this for a debate with a Christian friend.

I asked If
“1 John 4:8] ...God is love.”
And
“[1 Cor 13:5] Love...keeps no record of wrongs.”
And
“..Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;...it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;...it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right...Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...LOVE NEVER FAILS; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues,they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away...[1Cor 13:4-8]”
and
“[1John 4:18.8] There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.
And
John 8:15 (English-NIV) You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

””” Then
1) it is clear”he” keeps no record of wrongs and does not judge.
2) “he” is not a “jealous” God.
3) “he” has no ego and can not demand to or wish to be worshiped or placed before any other
4) “he” does NOT “insist on his own way”
5) Does not want to be feared in any way.
6) does not punish.

Good post. It is well known that the bible can be used in the way one wants to prove almost anything. The problem is that only fundamentalists have the motivation to spend half their lifes seeking what they want to see.

 

[athon]

Weak? No. If we understood that prison was the closest thing to hell on earth -- or, at least "why" we have prisons -- then perhaps we could better understand what the nature of hell is.

Prison is not the closest thing to Hell on Earth, first of all. I can think of plenty of things that could fall to that definition before prison.

Hell is one of two things; either absolute anguish for eternity, which can be equated to the physical pain of being burned...

or

Eternity of knowing who God is and not being in His presence.

Now, assuming your ridiculous analogy is trying to draw a parallel between the reason behind Hell's existence and prison, we need to define what the reason for prison is (an entire argument in itself).

I'll make some assumptions here and firstly say it is primarily to remove people from the greater population who have been declared as potentially dangerous (based on your earlier comment).

How can you be of danger to another entity in Heaven? God is omnipotent and he can simply prevent that without the need for Hell.

Ok, let's make another assumption and see Hell (as prison) as having the purpose of social rehabiliation.

Rehab'? There is no getting out of Hell, so what's the point?

Hmm...let's try the reason for Hell (as prison) is as a form of punishment to disuade people from breaking rules. Hey, we're getting somewhere here. But this gets us back to our original conundrum (which was the reason you postulated this prison analogy) that God is basically establishing rules (the top rule being 'Not believing in Me will land you in Jail, a place you don't believe in anyway) and creating a bias towards breaking them in man, knowing that with Free Will some of his 'loved' creations will not believe in Hell's existence...

...and therefore it is a moot point whether it is there as disincentive to not sin or not.

Therefore, again, Hell is a paradox.

Athon

 

[pgwenthold]

Isn't the biggest failure of the "prison" analogy the fact that society never claims that it loves criminals?

I realize trying to make a logical argument with Iacchus is like beating your head on the concrete, but I'd hope even he could see that the analogy doesn't really address the question.

 

[Beleth]

Also, as I understand it, those who die as little children, are automatically received into heaven.

Then logically the best thing you could do for a baby would be to kill it.

And of course God would consider this a good act, because what could be a more good act in His eyes than helping others get to Heaven? So it would assure you of a place in Heaven too.

 

[Iacchus]

Then logically the best thing you could do for a baby would be to kill it.

Yeah sure, if you want to tear your heart out. So I doubt very much that you will find too many people who are willing to do that.

 

[Iacchus]

Isn't the biggest failure of the "prison" analogy the fact that society never claims that it loves criminals?

I realize trying to make a logical argument with Iacchus is like beating your head on the concrete, but I'd hope even he could see that the analogy doesn't really address the question.

Excerpt from Emanuel Swedenborg's, Heaven and Hell ...

Man After Death is Such As His Life Had Been in the World.

479. (i) Man after death is his own love or his own will. This has been proved to me by manifold experience. The entire heaven is divided into societies according to differences of good of love; and every spirit who is taken up into heaven and becomes an angel is taken to the society where his love is; and when he arrives there he is, as it were, at home, and in the house where he was born; this the angel perceives, and is affiliated with those there that are like himself. When he goes away to another place he feels constantly a kind of resistance, and a longing to return to his like, thus to his ruling love. Thus are affiliations brought about in heaven; and in a like manner in hell, where all are affiliated in accordance with loves that are the opposites of heavenly loves. It has been shown above (n. 41-50 and 200-212) that both heaven and hell are composed of societies, and that they are all distinguished according to differences of love.

So, what do they say about birds of a feather? ...

 

[Robin]

Why do we have prisons on earth? To detain those who are incapable of behaving civilly towards others, correct? Why should hell be viewed any differently?

Since Hell is defined as eternal suffering then a torture facility would be the more appropriate analogy. Normally we regard leaders who keep torture facilities as unacceptable and if we are lucky we can pluck them from their spider holes.

 

[Riddick]

Take a look at Bertrand Russell's "Why I am Not a Christian." There is a serious moral problem with hell, in that the concept of neverending punishment is fundamentally unjust: George Carlin puts it a little differently:

hell won't last forever. the people going to hell will be put to death, and that death lasts forever.

but, i don't think you care whether or not that's true, do you? i imagine i'd spoil your hopes of playing your george carlin card.

 

[Robin]

hell won't last forever. the people going to hell will be put to death, and that death lasts forever.

but, i don't think you care whether or not that's true, do you? i imagine i'd spoil your hopes of playing your george carlin card.

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46