The Loose Change forum

[stateofgrace]

Well stateofgrace, at least we start out in agreement.

I judge people here based on their words and not by the fact that they are members of JREF. People who are members of LC should be judged similarly.

Many comments made here only serve to undermine the credibility of the person making them. Not all the theories postulated in the LC Forums are "absurd and ridiculous". Granted, some are but that's inevitable when you have unfiltered posting. I have seen many posts on JREF that are speculative when drawing conclusions about members of LC and show a clear lack of concern regarding validaty. Knowing the majority will likely join in the mockery as a source of amusement, many posters abuse LC members feeling quite free to say what they wish. I don't recall seeing any 'regular' non-troofer chastise a fellow member for unwarranted belligerence.

I am well aware of the carnage that took place on 9/11 and I don't need you to remind me of it!

You have no right to tell me, or anyone else, that I don't have the right to question the validity of the Official Story regarding the events of 9/11!

To make blanket statements about a large forum like LC just betrays your bigotry and total lack of balanced judgement!

To hide behind the losses of those who were sacrificed on 9/11 in order to justify your vitriolic feelings towards all members of LC is disgusting. The LC Forum is not the LC film. Many here are so blinded by their bigotry they fail to distinguish the difference.

I am a member of LC because, to date, it's the best forum I've encountered to have a dialogue about the events of 9/11.

I make no secret about my belief that the Official Story is unbelievable for me.

The issues are too important to be buried because painful memories are awakened in the families of survivors.

MM

And why should I not make blanket statements about this forum? Why should I listen to you?

Please save your fake outrage and snooty condemnation of me, my friend, for I am not your enemy, I am Joe Public, the guy you are trying to convince, remember?

So go ahead convince me, sell me your alternative theory. Prove you are not what I have accused you and the LC forum of. Offer it up, stop hiding behind words and offer up your thesis.

Save also you false accusation that I hide behind anybody let alone the victims of 911 and your accusations of bigotry. You have done nothing since you arrived here but spewed words, without any substance and without backing up anything. You will not receive a sympathetic hearing from me and I will continue to question you and anybody else that promotes BS. Doing so on LC may get you off but not here. Here you will be scrutinised, you will be subject to ridicule and you will be made to account for your theories. You would do well to remember your place, that being you are accusing innocent people of mass murder. This you do through choice, this is you prerogative, and it is you right. Equally so it is my right to call you out and another crackpot that does so. It is my right to reject you and your theories out of hand. This I do because after five years and all your rhetoric you have proved nothing, you have gained nothing.

You have been asked questions, which you have avoided. So I will ask you again. What happened on 911?

Prove me wrong; show how I am unable to make a balanced judgement. Shop hiding behind rhetoric and start putting up.

Show me why LC is justified and why it should be taken seriously, why I should not call people from there that spew obscene theories onto the net about the fate of the passengers idiots.

You are the truth seeker, you want the truth. This is incorrect; you neither seek the truth nor want it. You want to be the man, the hero who saved humanity from the nasty USG. This is the truthy dream. So put up.

Answer the question,what happened on 911?

 

[The Doc]

Nice posting stateofgrace

I think he should answer in this format (Thanks Orphina Nay):

Hello, my name is Miragememories. I joined this forum because I am interested in 9/11 conspiracy theories and I am skeptical of the "official version of events".

I learned about the "official version" by _____________________ [insert details as appropriate, such as "reading the NIST/FEMA/9/11 Commission Reports; reading prisonplanet.com; watching "Loose Change"; etc etc"].

The evidence that I have seen does not seem to add up to the story that says that 19 hijackers brought the world's most powerful country to its knees.

I am testing the theory that ______________________.

The strongest evidence towards this theory, in my opinion, is:

A) ___________________________ (Source: ______________)
B) ___________________________ (Source: ______________)
C) ___________________________ (Source: ______________)
etc.
[fill in the blanks with your choices, Miragememories.]

I wish to find out the truth, and if this evidence can be proved to be false or irrelevant, I will understand that I have been mistaken in thinking my theory and/or sources were correct.

Sincerely,
Miragememories.

 

[DavidJames]

Not all the theories postulated in the LC Forums are "absurd and ridiculous"...

I invite you to tell us one or two theories that you don't feel are "absurd and ridiculous". Tell us about them and show us the evidence which supports them.
edit: Use the from from Doc's post above this. Also when you are listing the evidence, try really hard to provide evidence in favor of your theory which does not involve conjecture, coincidences, cherry picked or misunderstood quotes.

I am a member of LC because, to date, it's the best forum I've encountered to have a dialogue about the events of 9/11.

Most of the posters here have been banned from LC because they tried to have such a dialogue, not for rules violations.

I make no secret about my belief that the Official Story is unbelievable for me.

Specifically, what do you find unbelievable and what research have you done to confirm you belief.

 

[The Almond]

Almond, Have you read all 10,000 pages of the NIST Report? Are you not "parroting" your response based on what you've gleaned from second hand observations about the report?

As a requirement for new employees at my firm, which designs highrises and skyscrapers, I was required to read the entirety of the NIST NCSTAR 1 report with appendices. It sits in my office to this day.

What make's you so qualified to say my reply was "casual"?

Your choice of words for dismissing the NIST report was based on a form of willful ignorance that has no basis in reality. It was neither a well formed, well expressed or factual opinion. Casual was indeed the correct characterization.

You haven't any information whatsoever to back up your claim that I have spent no time studying the NIST 9/11 Report.

Except that, had you actually read the report, you would not have made the erroneous statement that NIST based the majority of their conclusions on a simulation. This is false.

I suggest you be sure of your facts before you start behaving the way you accuse CTers of behaving!

What an excellent suggestion! Now that I am certain of my facts, perhaps you will actually read the NIST NCSTAR 1 report and be certain to get your facts straight.

 

[beachnut]

Not all the theories postulated in the LC Forums are "absurd and ridiculous".

I am a member of LC because, to date, it's the best forum I've encountered to have a dialogue about the events of 9/11.

I make no secret about my belief that the Official Story is unbelievable for me.

The issues are too important to be buried because painful memories are awakened in the families of survivors.

MM

Show me a theory postulated at the LC Forum that is not "absurd and ridiculous". Can you find any?

What part of 19 terrorist killing people is unbelievable?

When you make up stories without facts you are disrespectful to families of survivors. You are a simple Alex Jones liar and the lowest kind of person who would speak up without facts on something that is too important to lie about!

LC forum CTers are devoid of facts and disrespectful for those who died on 9/11. It is just that simple and most CTers are so blind they can not even see that simple fact.

Your veiled attempt at being the elite researcher on 9/11 has failed; you brought no facts just fictitious stories made up of lies (based on your posts all over the internet).

 

[R.Mackey]

As a requirement for new employees at my firm, which designs highrises and skyscrapers, I was required to read the entirety of the NIST NCSTAR 1 report with appendices. It sits in my office to this day.

Excellent. I suspect your example is not uncommon.

It pains me to see just how misguided the Deniers are in this respect -- we, the public, have unprecedented access to the methods and conclusions of this investigation. We should take full advantage of it. I suspect that, if an average high-school graduate bothered to read through the entire bulk of the NIST report, she couldn't possibly help gaining valuable insight into the process of engineering.

Disaster case-studies are marvellous training tools. After the Columbia accident, a copy of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board report was printed and handed to every single NASA employee -- engineers, network techs, managers, HR, you name it. It's crucially important that we all learn from our mistakes. Some mistakes are purely due to design, but many have contributing factors all across the organization.

So if you have any interest in what happened, whichever side of the fence you're on, give it a read. It's all right here, it won't cost you a dime. This is how things really work.

 

[The Almond]

Excellent. I suspect your example is not uncommon.

Not among good engineers and scientists, anyway. You're right about the NIST report being an excellent learning tool. Despite work experience, undergraduate and graduate training in structural design, I still learned an enormous amount from the NIST report. It's still true that engineers learn best from failure, not from success.

For anyone interested, the most recent, massive engineering failure (the levees in New Orleans) also has a report. It's only 129 pages long, but it, too is an excellent learning tool. The study was undertaken by UC Berkeley and the ASCE and it also sits on my desk as a valuable lesson in design and forecasting.

 

[Oliver]

*snip*I haven't made any videos. Until today, that is, and I'll have that up on Google shortly. *snip*

Huh? What did i miss?

 

[chipmunk stew]

Hopefully members here who have seen my posts in the LC forums accept that I'm only interested in the common good and attempt to engage in honest fair-minded dialogue whenever possible.

That's my impression of you.
Welcome!

Please keep in mind that the LC Forums, just like the JREF Forums allow anyone, regardless of age, education or experience to join. With such diverse memberships, you'll get quality and you'll get crap.

If you compare the administration styles of the two forums honestly, though, wouldn't you agree that this forum tends to attract and retain quality and discourage crap, while the LC forum does just the opposite?

 

[chipmunk stew]

I agree The Doc.

For that reason I have read numerous books, many papers 'pro and con' and have seen a multitude of documentaries.

I'm not inclined to believe all the the well presented arguments I've seen are 'hogwash'. Feel free to trash the lazy badly researched ones.

Which, specifically, do you consider well-presented and credible?

I do think the skeptics do an excellent job of raising the point that there are a lot of questions that so-called CTers can't answer or don't answer satisfactorily.

My hope is that someday a proper unrestricted investigation will be launched that will finally put the 9/11 issue to bed.

How would a "proper unrestricted investigation" look?

For the record, I dearly hope that the Official Story is the legitimate one!

MM

Perhaps there are some questions you have that we've examined here that you may be able to put to rest. In your view, what are the key points that cause you to doubt the "Official Story"?

 

[HyJinX]

More brilliance coming from the twoofies at LCF:

QUOTE (water_bender @ Jan 22 2007, 01:52 PM)i am of the opinion that violent resistance is the only thing that will enact any real change, and it seems that noone is willing to take it that far.

QUOTE From Ultimist
I am with you, water_bender. These people who think there is a peaceful solution to everything haven't taken the time to look at the real world or at history.

This kind of thing in the past has taken a REVOLUTION in order to fix. I firmly believe that a widescale violent revolt and the ousting of the current government BY FORCE is the only way we are going to solve the current level of corruption and disregard for human life. The US is turning into Nazi Germany, and lots of people don't even seem to care.

I care. Others should too, because they or the ones they love could be the victims of the next 9/11.

 

[~enigma~]

QUOTE (water_bender @ Jan 22 2007, 01:52 PM)i am of the opinion that violent resistance is the only thing that will enact any real change, and it seems that noone is willing to take it that far.

QUOTE From Ultimist
I am with you, water_bender. These people who think there is a peaceful solution to everything haven't taken the time to look at the real world or at history.

This kind of thing in the past has taken a REVOLUTION in order to fix. I firmly believe that a widescale violent revolt and the ousting of the current government BY FORCE is the only way we are going to solve the current level of corruption and disregard for human life. The US is turning into Nazi Germany, and lots of people don't even seem to care.

Somebody should tell those lossers that as soon as they even hint at organizing an armed revolution and the government thinks there is any possibility of it being true, they are signing their own death warrents.

 

[HeyLeroy]

Nah. Let 'em figure it out the hard way.

 

[JimBenArm]

More brilliance coming from the twoofies at LCF:

QUOTE (water_bender @ Jan 22 2007, 01:52 PM)i am of the opinion that violent resistance is the only thing that will enact any real change, and it seems that noone is willing to take it that far.

QUOTE From Ultimist
I am with you, water_bender. These people who think there is a peaceful solution to everything haven't taken the time to look at the real world or at history.

This kind of thing in the past has taken a REVOLUTION in order to fix. I firmly believe that a widescale violent revolt and the ousting of the current government BY FORCE is the only way we are going to solve the current level of corruption and disregard for human life. The US is turning into Nazi Germany, and lots of people don't even seem to care.

I care. Others should too, because they or the ones they love could be the victims of the next 9/11.

So, are we to worry about a revolution being organized by people who can't even organize their sock drawer?

Count me among the underwhelmed.

"The twoofers are revolting!"

"You can say that again!"

 

[~enigma~]

So, are we to worry about a revolution being organized by people who can't even organize their sock drawer?

Count me among the underwhelmed.

"The twoofers are revolting!"

"You can say that again!"

I guess that LCF isn't aware that the myspace woowoo group had a thread deleted by myspace that was discussing an armed revolution. The woowoos have put crosshairs on themselves and talk of arms will serve no purpose except to hasten their demise. but then again, do you really think the government is going to worry about a bunch of jerks that live in their mother's basement?

ETA - for those of you who think myspace isn't monitored, just ask 14 year old Julia Wilson for clarification.

 

[Calcas]

Somebody should tell those lossers that as soon as they even hint at organizing an armed revolution and the government thinks there is any possibility of it being true, they are signing their own death warrents.

Oh, they're coming SOOO close. I hope they take it up a notch.

There was an article in our paper today about a local man who wrote a letter to the editior and said that when Sadaam was hung, "they killed the wrong guy."

The next day he was paid a visit by the Secret Service.

 

[aggle-rithm]

The issues are too important to be buried because painful memories are awakened in the families of survivors.

MM

Are they important enough for you to respond to stateofgrace's request for your version of what happened on 9/11?

Should be pretty simple to do. If the "inside job" theory makes any sense at all, then it shouldn't be an arduous task to simply say, "here's what I think happened:", then fire away.

Personally, I think the reason that no troofer can do this is that they know how silly it would sound if they said it out loud.

Would you like to prove me wrong?

No?

I didn't think so.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I guess that LCF isn't aware that the myspace woowoo group had a thread deleted by myspace that was discussing an armed revolution. The woowoos have put crosshairs on themselves and talk of arms will serve no purpose except to hasten their demise. but then again, do you really think the government is going to worry about a bunch of jerks that live in their mother's basement?

I'm sure they won't, once they have thoroughly questioned the people involved. Of course, by that time, the poor troofers will be so emotionally scarred that they'll NEVER move out of mom's basement...

 

[chipmunk stew]

So, are we to worry about a revolution being organized by people who can't even organize their sock drawer?

Count me among the underwhelmed.

"The twoofers are revolting!"

"You can say that again!"

While I'm fairly certain we'll never see Alex Jones leading a charge up the White House steps, I do harbor a worry that someone with just the right blend of sociopathic, paranoid, and violent tendencies may be exposed to this myth and be so infected by it that they take it upon themselves to Do Something About It, resulting in tragedy not unlike the Beltway snipers or the OKC bombing.

edit: I'm mostly worried about people who don't have an online presence to speak of, who just lurk at the CT sites.

 

[ConspiRaider]

More brilliance coming from the twoofies at LCF:

QUOTE (water_bender @ Jan 22 2007, 01:52 PM)i am of the opinion that violent resistance is the only thing that will enact any real change, and it seems that noone is willing to take it that far.

QUOTE From Ultimist
I am with you, water_bender. These people who think there is a peaceful solution to everything haven't taken the time to look at the real world or at history.

This kind of thing in the past has taken a REVOLUTION in order to fix. I firmly believe that a widescale violent revolt and the ousting of the current government BY FORCE is the only way we are going to solve the current level of corruption and disregard for human life. The US is turning into Nazi Germany, and lots of people don't even seem to care.

I care. Others should too, because they or the ones they love could be the victims of the next 9/11.

Good post. Not all twoofers, but too many of them simply want to get out their rifles and Sig-Sauers and Smittys and Glocks and whatevers and shoot up the joint. Murder other human beings. Because their own lives are so empty and meaningless (in their minds).

For the twoofers in the United States of America having that mindset: They REALLY need to get out a bit and tour some of the other lovely countries on the planet. Only way to be convinced of just how unbelievably good they have it here in the USA. How incredibly lucky they are to be here, or to have been born here.

They've simply GOT to go to Egypt as one of the stops. I was there 28 years ago, and I still vividly recall the tremendous poverty. People gobbling down crusts of bread in the street gutter. Stray children looking for any bit of food or drink to steal. People's faces - fear and desperation etched in permanently.

Comparatively speaking - we here in the USA don't know the meaning of the word poverty.

So go, twoofers! See the world! Then come back, and discuss the "reason" for violence as a "solution".