The Logic of Torture

steverino said:
I know you were. We ALL know you were. I was not. And if I, a civilian who had done wrong, was tortured, I'd tell everything. It would work on me. Thin skin and all that.
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Oh, I'd tell something. And you'd tell something. Very few people wouldn't tell something.

The quality of what you or I would tell? I'd say - REALLY LOW.

Know what you'd do, in reality? Even under torture, you'd hold something back, if not everything, that was true. And why? Because you're a human being. And you want to hold on to any opportunity with which to bargain. Something that they AIN'T gonna get, unless you get something positive. And if they don't want to give you anything positive? Just figure they'll beat everything out of you? You'd hold something back just to maintain a little victory, a little dignity, for yourself. Betcha.
 
ConspiRaider said:
Oh, I'd tell something. And you'd tell something. Very few people wouldn't tell something.

The quality of what you or I would tell? I'd say - REALLY LOW.

Know what you'd do, in reality? Even under torture, you'd hold something back, if not everything, that was true. And why? Because you're a human being. And you want to hold on to any opportunity with which to bargain. Something that they AIN'T gonna get, unless you get something positive. And if they don't want to give you anything positive? Just figure they'll beat everything out of you? You'd hold something back just to maintain a little victory, a little dignity, for yourself. Betcha.
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Betcha nothing. All you are arguing is that interrogators are idiots with no goals except sadistic punishment.

Some may be, and some always are. I know who they are and were, but you don't see any distinctions. "Torture" (we always have wildly differing definitions) to you is just random infliction of unpleasantness, or pain, with the hope that a random piece of self satisfying information will be heard.

There are situations, like your silly "gotcha" when I gave the wrong name for "Sheik" (he was no sheik) Khalid or whatever, who we had every reason to believe was instrumental in 9/11 and every reason to believe had knowledge of other plans; to do what we could to find out what he knew.

There is no moral equivalence here, and no honor in treating him like a human with rights. That does not mean that the chicken little sky is going to fall, but that there needs to be recognized standards and reasons for when pain is justified.

If you think our, as you appear to, civilization is based on how nicely we treat our vilest enemies, then you are wrong. Our civilization is based on the fact that so far we have won. You would advocate that we base it our our pretense to be better and nothing more.
 
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Elind said:
Betcha nothing. All you are arguing is that interrogators are idiots with no goals except sadistic punishment.

Some may be, and some always are. I know who they are and were, but you don't see any distinctions. "Torture" (we always have wildly differing definitions) to you is just random infliction of unpleasantness, or pain, with the hope that a random piece of self satisfying information will be heard.

There are situations, like your silly "gotcha" when I gave the wrong name for "Sheik" (he was no sheik) Khalid or whatever, who we had every reason to believe was instrumental in 9/11 and every reason to believe had knowledge of other plans; to do what we could to find out what he knew.

There is no moral equivalence here, and no honor in treating him like a human with rights. That does not mean that the chicken little sky is going to fall, but that there needs to be recognized standards and reasons for when pain is justified.

If you think our, as you appear to, civilization is based on how nicely we treat our vilest enemies, then you are wrong. Our civilization is based on the fact that so far we have won. You would advocate that we base it our our pretense to be better and nothing more.
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Very little comment is necessary.

Other than to say this is a clarifying illustration of the mental state of a garden variety fanatical right winger in the United States of America.

World: Can you now understand, just a bit more, how George W. Bush was "elected" and reelected? We have people such as Elind in our country.

There's hope. There is always hope for him. But not from debate, or fact, or law or even the ability to conceptualize basic human decency. It's going to have to be something that personally and deeply affects him - and then it's still a whisker of a chance that he'll re-assess how he views everything. It's something, at least.
 
You are a fool, hearing nothing but yourself. I never voted for and never would vote for the likes of GW Bush.

You label an argument that suites your perspective, and think that in itself constitutes a rebuttal.

Take a hike buddy.
 
fishbob said:
He told you that after his last dunking?
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Naw. You already caught him after the fact. He was bragging to friends he knew another guy who was going to rape fishbob's son, and soon, and you wanted to find out where your son was before this happened.
 
Knock yourself out with the increasingly unlikely hypotheticals.

I advocate not abusing prisoners, and you are being a perv.
 
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fishbob said:
Knock yourself out with the increasingly unlikely hypotheticals.

I advocate not abusing prisoners, and you are being a perv.
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I advocate not pretending to debate with abbreviated insults. I don't advocate abusing prisoners either, but it seems that your black and white universe can't understand that...or could you have missed the smilie for a weak joke?
 
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From an executive standpoint, it doesn't really matter whether you get good information, no information, bad information. All the back and forth here, the ethics and what not denies the entire premise of torture: you have captured your enemy. Even if he wasn't your enemy to start with, he is now. Why not see how far you can get with him? There is no downside to torture.
 
JonM1121 said:
From an executive standpoint. . . . . . There is no downside to torture.
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From an executive standpoint there is no downside* to any kind of misery that the grunts have to put up with. *Except that he may be de-executized.

From an non-executive standpoint, you have obviously not been paying attention.
 
Is that a rebuttal? Or am I not paying attention to the rampant naturalistic fallacies littering the landscape of this thread?
 
We condemn the physical and mental abuse of others yet support it in the
pretex of enemies, evils doers, etc. How could any human do this to another?

For those of you who are supporting torture I would ask that you try it either as the victim or the torturer. Either must be terrible! You've all been watching too much television! Enter the real world and spend some time actually considering the process.
 
PAC said:
We condemn the physical and mental abuse of others yet support it in the
pretex of enemies, evils doers, etc. How could any human do this to another?

For those of you who are supporting torture I would ask that you try it either as the victim or the torturer. Either must be terrible! You've all been watching too much television! Enter the real world and spend some time actually considering the process.
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You must be a pacifist depending on others to defend your freedom to claim neutrality, right?

It's terrible the things humans must do sometimes to defend their own against the pretext of evil doers, etc.; who probably only exist in their warped imaginations......

Tiresome this existence be, as Yoda said
 
Elind said:
You must be a pacifist depending on others to defend your freedom to claim neutrality, right?

It's terrible the things humans must do sometimes to defend their own against the pretext of evil doers, etc.; who probably only exist in their warped imaginations......

Tiresome this existence be, as Yoda said
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Why would you assume I'm pacifist. I'm not. Why would you assume I depend on others to defend my freedom. Also, not true.

Perhaps I am thinking with compassion. Compassion for the innocents we have and are torturing. The Canadian citizen we kidnapped, the prisoners
at Guantanamo Bay, many of whom we were duped into imprisoning by their enemies.

If you care to dismiss compassion then consider practicality. Most of what I have read about torture indicates it is not effective.
 
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