The Last Straw - When Christianity Failed You

[Drewbot]

You want to mess with a minister, ask him how big a cubit is.

 

[KingMerv00]

When? Around the time I realized that Jesus' sacrifice was completely pointless.

 

[arthwollipot]

I've got a couple of anecdotes...

There was one time when my Christian friends told me that the band Queen was a satanic band. This had been revealed by people who had come out of the band (as far as I know, only one person left Queen and that was because he died). Apparently they burned their records in pentagrams. And it was also proven by the line from Bohemian Rhapsody: "Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me".

Straight face.

There were a couple of additional policies that annoyed me. The first was the policy of evangelism. I can't remember exactly which chapter it was that said basically "go out and convert all the nations to Christianity". I didn't much like that idea.

The other was the "us vs. them" of the particular Pentecostal sect of Christianity that I followed (Assemblies of God - the same sect as Sarah Palin, although 20 years earlier). Basically, every action you undertake that is not an overt act of worship of Jesus Christ was by default an act of worship of Satan. I really couldn't get behind that idea.

 

[fishbob]

Around age 5 or 6, I found out that there was no Easter Bunny. Shortly thereafter, no Santa, no Tooth Fairy. By age 7 or 8, I had read some of the bible. That was confusing. This god guy not only talked funny but was obviously some kind of psycho, and I am supposed to do what? No thanks.

 

[Fnord]

... I can't remember exactly which chapter it was that said basically "go out and convert all the nations to Christianity".

It's called the "Great Commission", and it's from the Book of Matthew, chapter 28, verses 19 and 20: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you..."

The other was the "us vs. them" of the particular Pentecostal sect of Christianity that I followed (Assemblies of God - the same sect as Sarah Palin, although 20 years earlier). Basically, every action you undertake that is not an overt act of worship of Jesus Christ was by default an act of worship of Satan. I really couldn't get behind that idea.

The idea is related to the idea that anything that you do while on the job that is not directly related to that job (like posting in public forums ) is wrong. Or if you are having fun without your wife being involved, then it is some form of 'cheating' on her. A very authoritarian attitude that tends to bind people through guilt to the person making the rules.

 

[Trakar]

Perhaps not. But your question was what led Cainkane1 to expect instant gratification. Whether he interpreted the quoted passages “accurately” or not, they certainly might have done the trick.

What you say is true, but the loss of faith in a strawman, shouldn't be held as any especial issue, afterall such strawmen are constructed specifically to take that "defeat." The bible isn't an instruction book for the physical world, so much as it is a running diary of social struggle, moral consideration and ethical debate, told in a form that semi/il - literate individuals can remember and contemplate on their own and with those of similar experience.

Unfortunately, Christianity exists within the hearts of man, and all too often that seed is corrupted by the soil of its bedding, into a self-serving, self-righteous demigogery. It is a mistake, however, IMO, to confuse bad people who are christians and bad christians with Christianity itself being the root of such badness.

 

[Trakar]

I find the whole idea of living forever a frightening one- assuming that "living" implies continued conciousness. To live with the limitations I have, with the same regrets, the same inadequacies forever? No thank you.

And what does the bible offer? Two choices: 1) An austere life in heaven or 2) Getting a red-hot poker up the you-know-where for all eternity.

Talk about Catch-22. Even if "God" does relax the "rules" for believers in Heaven, I can't imagine cavorting with nubile young women, bombing around ina Ferrari or doing other "fun stuff" that you denied in the real world goes down well up there. But even if it does, I'd get bored of that very quickly. Either way, heaven or hell, the Christian afterlife is full of dullness - FOR ALL ETERNITY.

Cheers "God". No thanks.

This isn't the place for a discussion of heaven and hell, but the only thing that is understood about the Catholic beliefs in such is that Heaven consists of an open joining with God, and Hell consists of being seperated from God.

 

[GenghisKhan]

I didn't really have an "aha!" moment. I was baptized as a Catholic, but that was more to appease my grandparents. After we moved, we started attending a UU church, and when we moved again we were Episcopalian. As you can see, religion in my family wasn't very strict. I went to sunday school until I was 16 or so, but never bothered to get confirmed because I didn't like the new teachers we had. I really enjoyed being in sunday school before that because we had great leaders who encouraged discussion and I made a lot of good friends (many of whom I am still friends with today).

I think I just slowly started thinking my own way. When we were on a mission trip/pilgrimage to the southwest, I began questioning the biblical sense of religion, and started wondering if the "truth" wasn't more like Buddhism. I thought maybe we reached a sort of "Nirvana" when we expanded our sphere of influence to the whole universe, instead of worrying about ourselves so much, or even the whole Earth.

I think this was really the catalyst: deciding that the goal (of what, I am not sure) was to understand the vastness of the universe, and accept that we mean nothing.

After this, I just started questioning things. I still prayed every night for many years, and prayed whenever I took off on an airplane.

I guess college really solidified my atheism. Being around so many critical thinkers, and taking a Science & Pseudoscience course through my scholars program really hit home how illogical it was to believe in God.

 

[iknownothing]

Not any one particular last straw, or a very sudden decision; just an accumulation.

I did have a last straw moment of losing patience with my last vestiges of sympathy for Christianity -- I'd kinda forgotten it when that thread about liberal Christianity was going on! It was hearing a preacher talking about the story where 42 children are making fun of the prophet Elisha for being bald, and so God sends a couple of bears who devour the children. So ridiculous to begin with (God sure is luv huh). But this particular preacher told it as, the bears chased away the children. Probably most of the congregation didn't know better, since that's not exactly a common Sunday School story. But it just ticked me off. What's the point of pretending to take moral guidance from a book that you need to edit for it to make any moral sense? Whatever is in there that is good, isn't anything you need the Bible to figure out, anyway. It just made it so clear how useless the Bible is, and IMO how liberal Christians have to do so much editing to pretend that it has any value.

Is every snippet of text (regardless of source, culture or translation) best, and most accurately interpretted with modern (and individual) perspective literality?

Are you saying that those snippets contradict church teaching? Because I've heard it very clearly preached, that if you pray with an open heart you will get what you desire. "Knock and the door will be opened unto you, seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto you." Yes, the exact same churches also preach that you may not get what you pray for, and God knows best and trust in His plan, etc. Just another example of the contradictions that bothered me growing up, trying to mentally knit them together into any kind of coherence.

 

[C_Felix]

Soooo much to type!

Gonna do my best to keep it conscice, conscienc...consi...short!

I was raised Roman Catholic.
I was told that God has a book up there with my name on the spine. Everything I'll ever do (such as typing this post, what I'll have for dinner, when I'll die...) is in that book.

Pre-determination.
He has a plan.

I asked in Sunday School (I was in the 4th grade at the time) "We're all God's children (Yes was the reply from the priest), he loves us all (yes) then why does he plan horrible lives for his children that he loves?"
"What do you mean?"
"Charlie Manson. Son of Sam. (If it had happened, I would've added Lisa Steinberg to my list) Why does he plan lives like that for his children that he loves?"
"You need to have faith" was the answer.

It didn't cut it.

***
Also, the picking and choosing of what is "okay" in the Bible.
Can't do that! Why? The Bible.
Shouldn't say that! Why? The Bible.
Well, the Bible states...etc...

Well, unicorns are in the Bible.
http://www.unicornmuseum.org/

Leviticus is fun!
"You may have male and female slaves, but buy them from the nations around you."
11:6-8, Don't touch a dead pig.
Exodus 35:2, Don't work on a Sunday.

I always wonderd about football players.
A football is traditionally pig leather and they work on a Sunday...

So, the picking and choosing really didn't help.

 

[Trakar]

Is every snippet of text (regardless of source, culture or translation) best, and most accurately interpretted with modern (and individual) perspective literality?

Are you saying that those snippets contradict church teaching?

"do the snippets contradict church teaching?" not, to my knowledge (given that I'm not sure which particular "church" you are speaking of). Does the modern, literalist, plucked out of context, implication of these snippets support general Christian principles and understandings? If not, why not? Given that the authors and editorialists throughout much of the last two millenia (or so) for the most part, are generally and widely acknowledged to be intelligent, educated and learned scholars and philosophers, alongside thier religious focus,...and yet simplistic, literalist readings should have revealed such obvious contradictions long ago?!

Regardless, the main flaw in Christianity is that it relies upon flawed human representatives to emulate its principles and distort its message to others.

Because I've heard it very clearly preached, that if you pray with an open heart you will get what you desire. "Knock and the door will be opened unto you, seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto you." Yes, the exact same churches also preach that you may not get what you pray for, and God knows best and trust in His plan, etc. Just another example of the contradictions that bothered me growing up, trying to mentally knit them together into any kind of coherence.

Again, best not to confuse the imperfectly presented, flawed metaphors and misunderstandings of individual christians (preachers included) for the principles and core teachings/understandings of Christianity.

If I'm not mistaken Thomas Jefferson even took a shot at an extreme extension of rationally-based Christianity without the miracles and mysticism, I may make time to take a look at his efforts in more detail, its been a few decades since I glanced through a copy, and had different motivations influencing my skims.

 

[Trakar]

What about those who do not survive the measles?

Did they pray properly?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself! (the deebil made me do it!)

As for the second question, the idea that you can pray to God and receive stuff is one of the central tenets of Christianity, and there's tons of stories of prayers having been answered. It's little wonder someone, somewhere, will actually buy it.

Prayer isn't about wish fulfillment, its about personal acceptance of role and responsibility and expressions of love for a Creator who allowed you to experience some brief instant of existence within His Creation....(highly subjective perspective).

The primary appropriate prayer in Christianity, IMO, is for self-acceptance of God's role for the supplicant in His plan of all that is. The church is extremely mild in its rebuke of those who pray for material, selfish and petty gain, but that is a flaw in most churches and the people who run them, not in the tenets of the faith. Entreaties and intercessions are considered mostly harmless but are frowned upon because of the expectations that are often associated with them. Other than this we are left with the prayers that praise and glorify the Heavenly Father, and ask forgiveness for weaknesses.

Churches that teach and emphasize prayer as a personal wishcraft type practice as central to their doctrine are doomed to lose the faith of their followers. Given the issues mentioned by most so far, it is easy to understand why they lost faith in the churches of their beliefs and understandings. I'd still question whether these were actual and established church beliefs or just the mis-understanding/statement of the given church's actual beliefs.

 

[Fnord]

Prayer isn't about wish fulfillment, its about personal acceptance of role and responsibility and expressions of love for a Creator who allowed you to experience some brief instant of existence within His Creation ... we are left with the prayers that praise and glorify the Heavenly Father, and ask forgiveness for weaknesses.

.
The Lord's Prayer (Fnordic Version, from the earliest manuscripts of Matthew 6:9-13)...

Our Heavenly Father, Holy is your name (worship).

Rule over us on Earth as you do in Heaven, according to your will (supplication -- another way of saying "Make this world into the likeness of Heaven and deal with us as you see fit").

Feed us today (supplication -- more generally "Provide for our basic needs for living").

Forgive us in the same way that we forgive others (supplication -- maybe "Judge and Forgive..." would be more appropriate).

Let us not go where we would tempted (supplication -- "where" may also indicate a state of mind).

Bring us back into your presence (supplication -- Another way of saying "Rescue us from sin").

(The earliest manuscripts do not have the next part, by the way. It was added later. So maybe Jesus did not instruct the apostles to pray these next words.)

For you are the Eternal, Powerful and Glorious King (worship -- Acknowledging His status as the everlasting, omnipotent king who is worthy of our praise and worship.)

Nowhere in the Lord's Prayer does it present a quid-pro-quo arrangement. The supplicant offers only worship in exchange for all that he or she asks. Even then, the supplicant is not being instructed to ask for wealth, influence, status, or justice -- only a little food, mercy, guidance, deliverance and the opportunity to live under God's rule.

Not a bad deal if God is loving, merciful, wise, caring and just. Too bad the most visible of those who present themselves as His most 'devout' followers also behave as the most hate-filled, merciless, stupid, indifferent and cruel people you could ever want to avoid.

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- The Mahatma, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (1869 - 1948)

 

[arthwollipot]

It's called the "Great Commission", and it's from the Book of Matthew, chapter 28, verses 19 and 20: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you..."

Yes, that's the one. Thanks.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I've got a couple of anecdotes...

There was one time when my Christian friends told me that the band Queen was a satanic band. This had been revealed by people who had come out of the band (as far as I know, only one person left Queen and that was because he died). Apparently they burned their records in pentagrams. And it was also proven by the line from Bohemian Rhapsody: "Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me".

Straight face.

Back in the mid '80s my friends and I listened to a tape of some preacher that one friend's sister had given him. At first we laughed a bit, but then we became rather annoyed and even angry. He asserted the usual crap: Backward messages in Led Zeppelin songs, Rush is an acronym for rulers under Satan's hand, The Police wrote a song telling people to murder everyone in their family. Even in junior high school I knew that Murder By Numbers was political satire. I still wonder if that preacher was too obtuse to understand satire or if he was simply so eager to see a threat in popular music that he chose not to see it.

 

[shawmutt]

For a great laugh (and a little sob for what he did to his collection of Satan)

http://www.turnbacktogod.com/lucifer-angel-of-music/

 

[Cainkane1]

When? Around the time I realized that Jesus' sacrifice was completely pointless.

Well the story where god caused a virgin to give birth to himself so he could sacrifice himself to himself so that he could modify his own rules is kind of confusing.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I find the whole idea of living forever a frightening one- assuming that "living" implies continued conciousness. To live with the limitations I have, with the same regrets, the same inadequacies forever? No thank you.

And what does the bible offer? Two choices: 1) An austere life in heaven or 2) Getting a red-hot poker up the you-know-where for all eternity.

Talk about Catch-22. Even if "God" does relax the "rules" for believers in Heaven, I can't imagine cavorting with nubile young women, bombing around ina Ferrari or doing other "fun stuff" that you denied in the real world goes down well up there. But even if it does, I'd get bored of that very quickly. Either way, heaven or hell, the Christian afterlife is full of dullness - FOR ALL ETERNITY.

Cheers "God". No thanks.

Similar thing here. I still remember the room where we had the youth group discussion of heaven and hell. One person said heaven would be where our every wish was granted before the thoughts are fully formed. Before I noticed all the nodding heads I blurted out "sounds like hell to me."

I had a friend with a rich grandfather who got everything he asked for. He was miserable. My only friend who I thought may commit suicide. Besides, lamp -> genie -> disaster. This isn't tough material to grasp.

The funny thing is that the minister agreed with me and thought it a real breakthrough. I really like the minister to this day, but the religion lost me in that room.

 

[Drewbot]

When? Around the time I realized that Jesus' sacrifice was completely pointless.

Can someone explain this in more detail?

Are you referring to the idea that God had his son killed, so that his other children would be good children? In other words, he did the flood, he sent the 7 plagues, etc... to show us that we need to believe, why does he have to sacrifice his son? That type of thing?

 

[Mister Agenda]

I've got a couple of anecdotes...

There was one time when my Christian friends told me that the band Queen was a satanic band. This had been revealed by people who had come out of the band (as far as I know, only one person left Queen and that was because he died). Apparently they burned their records in pentagrams. And it was also proven by the line from Bohemian Rhapsody: "Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me".

Straight face.

There were a couple of additional policies that annoyed me. The first was the policy of evangelism. I can't remember exactly which chapter it was that said basically "go out and convert all the nations to Christianity". I didn't much like that idea.

The other was the "us vs. them" of the particular Pentecostal sect of Christianity that I followed (Assemblies of God - the same sect as Sarah Palin, although 20 years earlier). Basically, every action you undertake that is not an overt act of worship of Jesus Christ was by default an act of worship of Satan. I really couldn't get behind that idea.

I was AOG on my mom's side. Were you a Royal Ranger, too?