The Jury System Around the World

merphie said:
It's important to remove potential jurors who could be biased.

Surely the occasional bias is the price to pay for a representational system - juries are supposed to be a random cross-section of the community. Members of the population are biased... and anyway, that's why there are 12 of them. As a procedure, choosing the jury seems to be open to scads of abuse and far more damaging than the alternative.

Or isn't there an option for majority verdicts in the US?
 
Matabiri said:
Surely the occasional bias is the price to pay for a representational system - juries are supposed to be a random cross-section of the community. Members of the population are biased... and anyway, that's why there are 12 of them. As a procedure, choosing the jury seems to be open to scads of abuse and far more damaging than the alternative.

Or isn't there an option for majority verdicts in the US?

The lawyers for both sides get a certain number of juror eliminations. They try to use them wisely, like not letting rape victims be on a jury in a rape trial, and not letting people who were acquitted of murder be on a murder trial jury. Some bias is just too much. For instance, an extremely devout religious person might vote "not guilty" in any murder trial that might result in a death penalty, despite what the evidence shows.

The point is not so much to eliminate all bias, it's to get rid of people who will deliberately screw up the jury system for their own reasons.
 
If I were on trial, I think whether I'd want a jury or judge making the final decision would depend on the specifics of my defense. If I were actually innocent, or if the evidence against me were iffy, I'd prefer a jury, because you're a lot less likely to have twelve biased people than one.

If my defense hinged on legal argumentation, or required trusting people to disregard evidence or testimony that's not admissible but is already public information, then I think I'd rather go with a judge, who will be better acquainted with the subtleties of the law and somewhat less likely to let emotion overcome his judicial objectivity. Or so my non-lawyer gut feeling tells me.

Also, am I the only one who hopes for jury duty? Sure, it's boring and a pain in the ass, but (all false modesty aside) I think I'm somewhat more rational and logical than the average person, and it seems to me that skeptics in particular would be good jurors.

Jeremy
 
toddjh said:
Also, am I the only one who hopes for jury duty? Sure, it's boring and a pain in the ass, but (all false modesty aside) I think I'm somewhat more rational and logical than the average person, and it seems to me that skeptics in particular would be good jurors.

You'd be shouted at by the other eleven, and then a mistrial declared.
 
toddjh said:
Also, am I the only one who hopes for jury duty? Sure, it's boring and a pain in the ass, but (all false modesty aside) I think I'm somewhat more rational and logical than the average person, and it seems to me that skeptics in particular would be good jurors.

I would happily serve on a jury. I have never been called to do so. I suspect it's because I am registered to vote as an indepentent. However I have been told they go off random selections of driver's license.
 
jay gw said:
No it's not. And that's why the United States is the only real democracy. Because the people are allowed to decide on each other's guilt/innocence, not the government. They call themselves democratic, but they control the people thru the state.

If this is not meant to be ironic then you are truly ignorant about how the rest of the civilised world works.

I wouldn't know how to begin to educate you.

If it is ironic I apologise in advance.
 
Nikk said:
If this is not meant to be ironic then you are truly ignorant about how the rest of the civilised world works.

I wouldn't know how to begin to educate you.

If it is ironic I apologise in advance.

Blackadder: "Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?"
Baldrick: "Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made out of iron."
 
merphie said:
It's important to remove potential jurors who could be biased.

My impression of the US system is that if you have a shedload of money a skilled defence team can go a long way towards picking a jury which is biased in their favour. A poor accused with a defence lawyer paid for out of the public purse has no such advantages.

I think we need a US lawyer like Suddenly or NoZed to comment.

In the UK you have an extremely limited right to object to jurors unless you have cause to think they are prejudiced, e.g. they are known to the accused. You certainly can't routinely cross question them about their beliefs and attitudes which seems to be possible in the US. We also permit majority voting when a unanimous decision can't be reached.
 
Nikk said:
My impression of the US system is that if you have a shedload of money a skilled defence team can go a long way towards picking a jury which is biased in their favour. A poor accused with a defence lawyer paid for out of the public purse has no such advantages.

I think you watch to many movies. The main problem here is that it seems most defendant take a plea bargin when they could have been aquitted in a trial.
 
I think it's unfair to say that "lawyers pick juries." They are able to ask the judge to exclude a juror for reasonable cause (risk of bias due to having had a run-in with the police in the past, for instance) and generally each side has a set number that they can elminate without cause. Other than these exclusions, the jury pool is still a random selection of your neighbors.
 
Rob Lister said:
I think their are two subjects being discussed here.

A Grand Jury is not really the same as a Jury. They decide different things. A Grand Jury decides if a (criminal) case has enough merit to bring to trial. A jury decides if a case has enough merit to convict.

I'm not sure why you posted this response to my flippant comment, but in any event, you're right.

The Grand Jury is defunct, anyway. The whole idea of it is this. A defendant has no rights whatsoever. No right to counsel and no right to object to questions. In return for this, Grand Jury testimony is supposed to be kept secret and not used as evidence for any other trial.

Quick question. Is there anybody who hasn't been in a coma or lived in a cave for the past ten years not seen excerpts of Clinton's Grand Jury testimony? No. I didn't think so.
 
hgc said:
I think it's unfair to say that "lawyers pick juries." They are able to ask the judge to exclude a juror for reasonable cause (risk of bias due to having had a run-in with the police in the past, for instance) and generally each side has a set number that they can elminate without cause. Other than these exclusions, the jury pool is still a random selection of your neighbors.


My impression, based on newspaper reports, is that a well heeled defence team is given considerable latitude in excluding a juror for "reasonable cause", far more than seems reasonable to me. I presume however that different states have different rules and I am also very uncertain about when and where majority verdicts are acceptable. This is why I would like an input from a US lawyer.
 
Of course, you do get verdicts like this.

Julie Ramage's mother wept silently on her husband's shoulder yesterday when she heard the verdict: "Manslaughter." But she was unable to stifle her sobs as the jury left the courtroom. And she was unable to restrain her rage as she left, passing her son-in-law, the man who had killed her daughter.

"Bastard," she hissed.

His head was bowed, as it had been since the verdict was announced. He did not reply.

After two days of deliberation, a jury of seven men and five women had concluded that James Stuart Ramage should not be convicted for murder over the killing last year of his estranged wife, Julie, who had separated from him a month earlier.

The defence had argued that Ramage should be convicted of the lesser charge of manslaughter because Julie had provoked him with verbal taunting and gestures in the moments before Ramage "lost it", punched her to the ground and throttled the life out of her on their family-room floor.

The prosecution had argued that she would never have taunted him because she feared him - he had been verbally and physically violent to her before.

Outside the court, her distressed parents called for the law of provocation to be ditched.

"I just feel that there's no justice," said her trembling mother, Patricia Garrett. "Any woman that's in a relationship where she feels threatened, I tell her not to stay for the sake of the children. Get out . . . My daughter stayed for the children, and she's paid the ultimate price: she's dead."

She said Julie's teenage son and daughter "have got no mother now".

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/28/1098667909423.html
 
TragicMonkey said:
That's a terrifying prospect to an American. We rely on the chance that twelve people will, collectively, be less biased and insane than our biased and insane judges. It's all down to luck in plucking the slightly-less-mad from the jury pool.

And it's much cheapier to intimidate a jury than it is to bribe a judge. More fun, too.

Oh, I sort of doubt that. In the Fed's Operation Greylord inquiries in Chicago and Cook County, it was determined you could get a murder case before a judge decided either way for a mere $5,000. That's a whole lot cheaper than even hiring a lawyer.
 
Nikk said:
My impression, based on newspaper reports, is that a well heeled defence team is given considerable latitude in excluding a juror for "reasonable cause", far more than seems reasonable to me. I presume however that different states have different rules and I am also very uncertain about when and where majority verdicts are acceptable. This is why I would like an input from a US lawyer.
Generally, both sides get a limited number of strikes (6 might be typical) that they can use without having to explain the reason (although striking jurors for obviously improper reasons can lead to a challenge). In addition, the judge will strike any juror who is not qualified for whatever reason, including being unable to be impartial. The lawyers can suggest to the judge any number of jurors who should be struck for cause.

Your strikes can make a big difference if you can find out enough about the first few jurors to eliminate the ones less likely to be predisposed in your favor. However, when you strike one, he or she is replaced by the next member of the panel, so you take what you get. It's not like you get to look over the whole panel and pick the jurors you want.

States do have different rules, but I don't believe that any jurisdictions allow conviction by majority juries for serious criminal charges. They may be allowed for minor, semi-criminal infractions, like traffic offenses, but I'm not aware of any specific examples. I'm not really sure if a majority verdict could work in a civil case where the jury decides not only responsibility, but the measure and distribution of damages.
 
merphie said:
It's important to remove potential jurors who could be biased.
Why?

Michael Redman
Saying that juries are made up of people too dumb to avoid jury duty is about the same as saying voters are people too dumb to realize that one vote won't make a difference.
Yeah, well, why should we listen to you? After all, message boards are made up of people too stupid to find something better to do with their time.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Yeah, well, why should we listen to you? After all, message boards are made up of people too stupid to find something better to do with their time.

Would you want a rape victim on your jury If you are accused of rape? she could be out to get personal justice by making someone pay for what happened to her. If you are not guilty then this could be a really big problem for you. On a jury there would be the potential for her to sway the other jurors into a guilty verdict by her emotional stance on the subject. See "runaway jury"

You don't have to listen to me or anyone else. The idea is for people to discuss things. Why are we all stupid for being on the forum? Is it not similar to talking on the phone? If we chose not to be here and be social then what should we be doing? Is relaxation not a good idea?
 
shuize said:
In another thread the issue of juries came up with regard to self-defense.

I'm curious about where juries are used around the world.

I've heard that juries have fallen out of favor in the U.K., Australia, New Zealand, Canada and that most of the common law countries no longer use grand juries or civil juries. Is that accurate?

I'd be interested to learn about other variations on the jury system from around the world as well.
In this country, jury-trials are used when the possible penalty (given the charges) is 4 years or more in jail. For trials where jail-time is possible but less than 4 years, a judge along with two "lay-judges" is used. A lay-judge (my translation from Danish) is like a jury-member and is picked from the populace in the same manner, but the decision of guilty/not guilty is arrived at by a simple vote of the judge and the two lay-judges.

In trials where jail-time is not a possible outcome (i.e. a fine is the maximum penalty), only a judge a decides.
 
merphie said:
Would you want a rape victim on your jury If you are accused of rape?
That's not really relevant.

she could be out to get personal justice by making someone pay for what happened to her.
There's a difference between being biased and having an ulterioir motive.

Why are we all stupid for being on the forum?
That was a joke, continuing Michael's line of thought.
 
People with biases that prevent them from rendering a fair judgment under the law are not qualified to be jurors. It's not the existance of a bias that matters, but the inability to do the job of a juror properly. Everyone has biases. Not all biases matter.
 

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