The JREF Million Dollar Challenge Unofficial FAQ

Beleth

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JREF Million Dollar Challenge
Frequently Asked Questions

Rev 1.0b: 15-Feb-2005


NOTE: This is a totally unofficial and unauthorized FAQ. This is one person's interpretation of the Challenge rules and observations of the Challenge process. Whenever this document and the official Challenge rules are in conflict, the Challenge rules win. Whenever this document and an official JREF spokesman are in conflict, the official spokesman wins. In both cases, this document will be updated to reflect the official stand as soon as possible.

Index of Questions

0. What should I do first?

1. Challenge history and trivia
1.1. What’s the history of the Challenge?
1.2. Why is there a Challenge in the first place?
1.3. How many applicants have there been for the Challenge?
1.4. How many people have passed the preliminary test?
1.5. How many people have passed the official test?

2. Questions about the wording and nature of the Challenge
2.1. What do you mean by “mutually agreed upon”?
2.2. What do you mean by “paranormal”?
2.3. Does (this) qualify as paranormal?
2.4. Why the limitation on things that might injure me?
2.5. Why the limitation on spiritual and religious claims?
2.6. Why is the JREF so hard-nosed about not changing the rules?
2.7. I disagree with a rule, or a rule shouldn’t apply in my case. How do I go about changing it or getting it waived?

3. Questions about the prize money
3.1. Does the prize money really exist?
3.2. That’s interesting evidence, but I still don’t believe that the money exists.
3.3. If someone wins, how will they be paid?

4. Applications and Applicants
4.1. How do I apply?
4.2. What should I do before I apply?
4.3. What should I expect during the application process?
4.4. How long does a typical application take to process?
4.5. Why isn’t there a standard test for some standard paranormal claims, like ESP or psychokinesis?
4.6. How much of my application is confidential?
4.7. Where can I find a list of all the people who have ever applied?

5. The Application Process
5.1. What happens between my submitting the application and the preliminary test?
5.2. What happens between the preliminary test and the official test?
5.3. Why is the application process so difficult?
5.4. Who pays for my expenses, and why?
5.5. Who pays for the JREF’s expenses, and why?


Questions and Answers

0. What should I do first?

Before you read any further into this FAQ, go read the actual Challenge Rules at http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html. No, really. Go do that now. Don’t just skim through it; take 10-15 minutes (or as long as you need) to read it thoroughly. Then come back.


1.1. What’s the history of the Challenge?

The Challenge started in 1964 when James Randi put up $10,000 of his own money to the first person who could provide objective proof of the paranormal [1]. Since then, the prize money has grown to the current $1,000,000, and the rules regarding the Challenge have gotten more and more official and legal.

1.2. Why is there a Challenge in the first place?

During a radio panel discussion, James Randi was challenged by a parapsychologist to “put [his] money where [his] mouth is”, and Randi responded by offering to pay anyone who demonstrated a paranormal power under satisfactory observational conditions. [2]

1.3. How many applicants have there been for the Challenge?

Between 1964 and 1982, Randi declared that over 650 people had applied [3]. Between 1997 and February 1, 2005, there had been a total of 352 official, notarized, applications. Of this new batch, 298 of them have been closed, and 54 of them are still open. By April 1, 2005, another 20 of the open ones will be closed due to lack of activity or other reasons [4].

1.4. How many people have passed the preliminary test?

None since 1997, although in 1982 Randi reported that 54 people had [5].

1.5. How many people have passed the official test?

None.


2.1. What do you mean by “mutually agreed upon”?

“Mutually agreed upon” means that neither side can force the other side into doing or saying something that they don’t want to, and that if no agreement can be reached, the application process is terminated, with no blame or fault on either side.

It’s easy to point fingers after a Challenge claim comes to an impasse and say that the other side was being unreasonable. This phrase is used to insure that that finger-pointing has no merit.

2.2. What do you mean by “paranormal”?

This is a remarkably difficult word to define correctly.
Webster’s Online Dictionary defines it as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural”, and it defines “supernatural” as “of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature; attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)”. But past JREF Challenge rulings have shown that certain events which depart from what is usual or normal aren’t always considered paranormal by the Challenge administrators.

2.3. Does (this) qualify as paranormal?

The best way to answer this is to give a list of things which people commonly apply for.

The following things have been ruled paranormal in the past:

Dowsing. ESP. Precognition. Remote viewing. Speaking with the dead. Violations of Newton’s Laws of Motion. Homeopathy. Chiropractic healing beyond back/joint problems. Faith healing. Psychic surgery.

The following things have been ruled NOT paranormal or eligible for the Challenge in the past:

UFOs. Bigfoot or other legendary creatures. Living without eating. Anything that is likely to cause injury. Cloud-busting. Religious and/or spiritual claims. Exorcism [6].

The following things have an ambiguous history regarding their paranormalcy:

Perpetual motion machines.

2.4. Why the limitation on things that might injure me?

Essentially, the JREF doesn’t want to be seen as even slightly condoning self-injury. It has partly to do with legal issues, partly to do with the image of the JREF, and partly to do with past experience with applicants. Most of the applications that are self-injurious involve living for extended periods of time without eating, and the evidence gathered over millennia is pretty strong that the human body does indeed die after a prolonged period without food.

In Randi’s own words:
‘A test of [someone who says he doesn’t need to eat] would occupy much more of my time than I'm willing to invest, and it would only feed the arsenal of those who love to accuse us of investigating only the easy cases. As soon as that test would be completed, another similar one would pop up, and we'd be off again -- “You tested him, why won't you test me?”’ [7]

2.5. Why the limitation on spiritual and religious claims?

It’s not so much the claim as it is that no one who has applied has been able to come up with a proof that is verifiable under
controlled conditions [8]. It’s not enough to reason your way to the existence of something spiritual or religious; you need to be able to prove it scientifically. Most spiritual apologists go to great lengths to explain why the existence of a higher power cannot be demonstrated scientifically, and that puts such discussions out of the scope of the Challenge.

Think of it this way. The JREF doesn't so much say “God doesn’t exist”; it’s more along the lines of “God doesn’t act in a way that is scientifically verifiable” or “God moves in mysterious ways.” Most spiritual people would actually agree with that last statement, so they and the JREF are on the same side and the Challenge therefore does not apply to them.

2.6. Why is the JREF so hard-nosed about not changing the rules?

It all comes down to the nature of a challenge. It's not a contest; there are not two parties competing for the same prize. It's a challenge. It's someone who deep down doesn't believe you can do what you say you can do daring you to do what you say you can do. It's not at all a friendly agreement. It's an adversarial arrangement. And because of that, the JREF sees no reason to change the rules for its adversaries.

It's also key to understanding the nature of this relationship to keep in mind that the JREF is the one doing the challenging. If this were a court of law, the JREF would be in the role of plaintiff and the person who applies for the Challenge is in the role of defendant.

This adversarial nature, with you as the defendant, is important to keep in mind as you go through the challenge process.

2.7. I disagree with a rule, or a rule shouldn’t apply in my case. How do I go about changing it or getting it waived?

You don't. Remember, you’re in the role of defendant, and defendants don’t usually get to choose the rules under which they are judged. You can ask to get a rule changed, but you should expect to have your request rejected.

3.1. Does the prize money really exist?

The short answer: Yes.

The medium-length answer: The money is held in the form of bonds held by Goldman Sachs, a much respected firm. Anyone can verify that the money exists by requesting the information from the JREF. They will in turn forward you a report from Goldman Sachs.

The long answer: The JREF is a tax exempt organization, so they are required by law to have a level of financial transparency. That means that the public can request things like an annual report and copies of JREF's 990 (the tax return non-profits file). Go to http://atgdata.fdncenter.org/990search/search.php to look up JREF's 990. Contained within these types of documents is enough information to verify that the organization does indeed have enough assets to cover the prize if necessary. The contract between the claimant and JREF is binding enough that JREF has to pay the prize if someone wins it. As a savvy applicant, all you need to do is verify that the organization holds enough assets to cover the prize. Also, if JREF was not able to hold up its end of the bargain the IRS would likely investigate and possibly pull JREF's tax exempt status. Rest assured the money is there [9].

Long answer, continued: The JREF prize seems to be held in a way that is similar to an endowment fund. Non-profits often create reserves of assets called endowments to build up enough money to take care of the organization in the case of bad financial times, or to save up money for a project down the road, like building a new facility or starting a large new program that would require a lot of capital. Endowment funds are held separately from the other money coming in and out of an organization. For example, The JREF prize money is being held separately from the general operating funds of the organization. This prevents JREF from accidentally spending the prize money on the light bill. It is never a good idea to just let large sums of money sit in a savings account for years and years, so most non-profits invest their endowment funds. The way they invest it is really not important. JREF invests in bonds which is fine. If they have to pay someone they will liquidate 1 million in bonds and pay the claimant. I know you are going to ask “What if the bonds cannot be easily liquidated?” Well, that would be incredibly stupid on JREF's part. No one would invest in illiquid assets if they knew they may need to get to the money quickly. If JREF did not pay a winning claimant in a reasonable amount of time they would be open to a law suit for breech of contract. Non-profits do not like getting involved in law suits so you can bet the assets can be easily liquefied. The claimant will be paid. JREF states that the funds are held in bonds so that a claimant can feel at ease about the ability of JREF to pay. That JREF will do so is going above and beyond the requirements of the law and the generally accepted practices of good responsible non-profits. It is an enormous act of good faith on JREF’s part [10].

3.2. That’s interesting evidence, but I still don’t believe that the money exists.

It's important to realize that if at this point you still doubt that the money exists, your doubt is in the entire American bond system in general and Goldman Sachs specifically, and not with the JREF. There is really not any more evidence the JREF can provide you. For concerns regarding Goldman Sachs, please inquire at their Web site, http://www.gs.com/.

3.3. If someone wins, how will they be paid?

Although the prize money is held in bonds as a way to publicly show that the money really does exist, the bonds will be converted to US dollars before being paid. The first $10,000 of the prize money will be paid by check, as stated in the Challenge rules. The usual method for paying an amount as large as the remaining $990,000 is via electronic transfer, and it is reasonable to assume that that is how this prize money will be paid as well.


4.1. How do I apply?

Fill out the application form, get it notarized, and mail it in.

A JREF employee who goes by the name of KRAMER will handle the application process. Please don’t send it straight to Randi, as he will not handle it personally and so sending it to him will only delay the process.

It is important that the application form be filled out in good, grammatical English. The people at the JREF who will be going through the application process with you are only guaranteed to be fluent in English. The hardest part of the application process will be refining your claim, and so it is vital that both sides understand each other as clearly as possible.

4.2. What should I do before I apply?

Get ready for a grueling, stress-filled process. Remember that in this situation, you and the JREF are adversaries, and they are going to do everything they can possibly think of to make you back down or make you look foolish. Remember, it's not a contest, it's a challenge. This isn't going to be like taking a test. This is going to be like going to court.

Make sure you are healthy. Get both a physical and mental check-up. Many people who claim to have paranormal powers are, sadly, under an advanced state of delusion instead. That isn't to say that you are, but it's a hypothesis which will come up during the application process. So be prepared for it in advance.

This next step is very important, because it will be the first big hurdle you will face:

Tell your physician and/or psychiatrist that you have a paranormal ability and that you plan on demonstrating your paranormal ability in front of numerous skeptics, and heed his advice.

The reason that this is a big hurdle is this: you should trust your physician/psychiatrist; he's on your side, after all. If you cannot convince him that applying for the Challenge is a good idea, you won't stand a chance against people you don't trust and who are not on your side.

After you are sure you are healthy and you have told your doctors about your intentions, make sure you can actually do the thing you will be claiming you can do in the application. If you know your ability is based on a trick or deception, stop right here and don't apply. Don't lie to yourself.

If you are sure you are not lying to yourself, find someone you know who is a reasonable, scientific sort and talk to him about your ability. Ask him to be as unfriendly and skeptical as possible. Then demonstrate it to him. This is the second big hurdle. If you can convince a brutally-honest friend that you can do something paranormal, then keep going. Otherwise, stop; you will have no chance convincing the JREF's testers.

Make sure you can reliably perform this ability. Make sure that standard things you would expect in the challenge, such as a room full of skeptics, or a physical object near or between you and the thing you want to affect, don’t affect your ability. If you can't read someone's mind when there's a skeptic nearby, or you can't see through a blindfold when there's a piece of cardboard between you and the object you are supposed to be able to see, then don't apply. These are just the sorts of things you will be subjected to during the test.

When you have done all these things:
- after you have talked to a doctor,
- after you have done a lot of soul-searching about your ability,
- after you have convinced a good friend who won't just nod and agree with everything you say, and
- after you are sure you can overcome any obstacle the testers could possibly throw at you:

then go ahead and fill out the application.

4.3. What should I expect during the application process?

You should expect a lot of (written) communication between yourself and the JREF. You should also expect to do a bit of traveling for the actual test, unless you happen to live in an area with an established skeptical group, which is uncommon.

4.4. How long does a typical application take to process?

This is a tough question, because there are not really any “typical applications”. An application made by an earnest applicant will take 1-6 months to handle, considering the refining of the application wording and the arranging of the testers for the preliminary test. Almost everything that has taken longer than that has turned out to come from an insincere applicant.

4.5. Why isn’t there a standard test for some standard paranormal claims, like ESP or psychokinesis?

In a nutshell, there's really no such thing as a “standard paranormal claim”. (Dowsing comes close, but testing dowsing takes an elaborate setup outside that has to be redone for every claimant anyway.) Even a test using Zener cards (the cards with wavy lines and stuff on them) isn't good for every person who believes he has ESP.

The Challenge is designed to test only what the applicant truly claims to be able to do. No two people claim to do exactly the same thing, so no two tests are going to follow the exact same process.

4.6. How much of my application is confidential?

Assume none of it is. If this bothers you, it is better that you do not apply.

4.7. Where can I find a list of all the people who have ever applied?

Since the Challenge has been going on since before the World Wide Web gained in popularity, no such list exists online. The JREF has limited resources, so most of the applications are actually just sitting in a file cabinet at the JREF headquarters in Florida. In other words, if you want a lot of details about the former applicants, you are going to have to go do your own research down at their headquarters.


5.1. What happens between my submitting the application and the preliminary test?

If all goes as expected, what happens at this point will be the hardest part of the process, and rightly so. This is where you and the JREF decide on the specifics of your test. Be prepared to take into account things you might not have thought of before.

For instance, maybe you can magically make monkeys fly out of your butt. On your application, that's what you write - “I can make monkeys fly out of my butt.” Once the JREF accepts your application, a number of things will have to be clarified.

- What kind of monkeys will fly out of your butt?
- How many?
- How long will it take?
- Where exactly will they appear to come out of?

So your simple nine-word sentence “I can make moneys fly out of my butt” will end up being the far more precise “I will produce between two and seven adult spider monkeys, weighing between three and five pounds each, over a period of not more than thirty minutes. These monkeys will appear from a region approximately six inches above my rectal opening, although there will not be a visible hole there.”

Even after all of that, expect the testers to demand an X-ray of your midsection right before the monkey production, and for you to be weighed both before and after the monkey production to affirm that the monkeys did not come from your body weight.

5.2. What happens between the preliminary test and the official test?

Probably some more travel, and a news reporter or two on your doorstep. What you should expect, however, is for none of the agreed-upon documents to change. There will not be a renegotiation of your abilities or how they will be tested.

5.3. Why is the application process so difficult?

Well, it is for a million dollars, after all.

A lot of it has to do with the nature of previous applicants. The JREF, through much experience, has realized that most of the people who apply are either under the mistaken impression that they actually have a paranormal power, or under the mistaken impression that they can pull a fast one on the JREF and swindle them out of the prize money. While you may be neither mistaken nor a swindler, the JREF will always assume that you are one or the other. It's ugly and it's unfair, but that's how it is, and you need to prepare yourself for that reaction.

5.4. Who pays for my expenses, and why?

You do. It's spelled out in the Challenge rules. Remember that your position in the Challenge is that of defendant. But it’s also to realize that there is an important difference between this and a court of law: you are not innocent until proven guilty. Rather, you are normal until proven paranormal, and it is up to you to prove your paranormality. This means that you have to pay for travel, you have to pay to build any devices you want to demonstrate, and so forth.

5.5. Who pays for the JREF’s expenses, and why?

Again, you do, and again, it's spelled out in the Challenge rules. The reason is that the JREF doesn't see any reason for it to spend any money to help you defend yourself.

Footnotes:
[1] Randi, James. FLIM-FLAM!, chapter 13 beginning.
[2] Ibid.
[3] Ibid.
[4] The thread titled “Can we get a Challenge historical wrapup/tally?”, http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52586. Look for Gr8wight’s first post.
[5] FLIM-FLAM!, chapter 13 beginning.
[6] The thread titled “Randi Gets Rude...”, http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19874. Look for Randi’s two posts.
[7] Ibid.
[8] The thread titled “THE GOD THREAD”, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51642. See the first post in the thread, by KRAMER.
[9] The thread titled “$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$”, http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52169. Look for Keri’s first post.
[10] Ibid.
 
I think your FAQ is really fantastic Beleth. You put an amazing amount of work into it.

I think it would be great to see that used either verbatim or incorporated into an "official" FAQ. All the areas you've hit upon I think highlight the need for it beyond the official challenge rules and terms.

Did you e-mail the JREF the link, in case they haven't seen it?
 
1.4. How many people have passed the preliminary test?
None since 1997, although in 1982 Randi reported that 54 people had [5].

Doesn't Randi usually say that no one has passed the preliminary test? What happened in 1997 to make the requirements more stringent, then?
 
Great Balls of Fire, Beleth!

Did you write all of that? I must admit that I've never taken special note of your writing (my bad, not yours) but from this point on I certainly shall.

Great work!
 
ReFLeX said:
Doesn't Randi usually say that no one has passed the preliminary test? What happened in 1997 to make the requirements more stringent, then?

I suspect that modern communications methods (EMAIL) allowed Randi to more precicely discuss test conditions with those who were running the preliminaries. It also allows him to more easily consult experts in various fields.

Previously, most setting of conditions would have had to be done via snail mail. Which means some controls may have been miscommunicated more easily.
 
ReFLeX said:
Doesn't Randi usually say that no one has passed the preliminary test? What happened in 1997 to make the requirements more stringent, then?

I think that is when the current version of the challenge started with the million dollar prize.

Beleth – fantastic piece of work, I hope Kramer or someone at the JREF “adopts” it so in can become an “official” FAQ.

(Edited for making a blethling mess of Beleth's name.)
 
Some suggestions:

Somewhere in the 'does the money exist' portion of the FAQ you might note that if the money did not exists, the very act of Randi saying it does would constitute fraud. Perhaps worse, it would garner the legal attention of a very misused Goldman/Sachs.

I'd also say that the JREF is not 'going to do everything' to make you look foolish. 'everything' has an implication that outright cheating will be included.

Somewhere you should point out there are some things that the JREF will insist upon for its testing and will not back away from. Things like controlled conditions, providing 'outs' that give you excuses afterwards, and so on.)

I may have more, but brain go pheh.

Edited to add: Since I didn't say it: Great job!
 
Let me add my voice to the chorus of impressed readers. Nicely done, Beleth.

A few comments : I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at with your "you are the defendant/they are the plaintiff" metaphor, but I also don't really like it. Aside from the potential burden-of-proof isssue that you discuss, there's also an element of metaphorical coersion involved. A defendant, after all, HAS to comply with the demands of the prosecution or risk sanction, while a JREF applicant can just walk away.

My usual metaphor is exactly the opposite -- the JREF is the defendant, but the burden is on the applicant to follow the procedural rules exactly (or risk having the case dismissed on a technicality) and to prove what they claim. Of course, no metaphor is perfect, but I might be interested in discussing privately exactly what you thought you were saying that I failed to pick up on. [Or publically, if there's enough interest.]

I agree with kookbreaker that the JREF will not do "everything" to make you look foolish.

I also think that something about about the need for clear-cut answers (i.e. without the necessity for judging) as a reason for all the technicalities and conditions would be appropriate.
 
Wow Beleth! IMHO -- a great job and the FAQ is crystal clear! :)

One small suggestion. In section 3.1 you many want to direct 990 inquirers to the www.guidestar.org website instead of http://atgdata.fdncenter.org/990search/search.php. I've found Guidestar to have a much more forgiving search engine. For example inputting either "JREF", "James Randi", "James Randi Foundation", "James Randi Educational Foundation" or "James Randi Educational Foundation Inc" all successfully point to the 990s with Guidestar. I've only been able to make the http://atgdata.fdncenter.org/990search/search.php search engine work with "James Randi" or with the JREF EIN number – and its doubtful that most inquirers would have the EIN number.

The only negative with Guidestar is that an inquirer must provide an e-mail address in order to get access to the 990 returns (The Atgdata website doesn't require that.)


Again -- Great Job!


Shera
 
Re: Re: The JREF Million Dollar Challenge Unofficial FAQ

new drkitten said:
Let me add my voice to the chorus of impressed readers. Nicely done, Beleth.


A very big ditto!

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at with your "you are the defendant/they are the plaintiff" metaphor, but I also don't really like it.


Also ditto. I think the problem is that you are confused about who is the challenger. It is the applicant who is making an assertion, and it is therefore the applicant who is tasked with proving a case. In proving the case, the challenger must abide by the rules of evidence, as outlined in the Challenge rules. JREF has to prove squat.

My usual metaphor is exactly the opposite -- the JREF is the defendant, but the burden is on the applicant to follow the procedural rules exactly (or risk having the case dismissed on a technicality) and to prove what they claim.


Exactly!

I agree with kookbreaker that the JREF will not do "everything" to make you look foolish.


Again, I agree. It is not JREF's task or intent to defeat the claimant. The intent in offering the prize, as I understand it, is to make it worthwhile for paranormal claimants to submit themselves to formal testing. Think of it in the same vein as the recent "X Prize" awarded for the first successful civilian spacecraft. It wasn't the intent of the sponsors to defeat the applicants, but to encourage research and development.

Consider: If the JREF prize is ever won, JREF will go down in history as a patron that helped broaden the scientific horizon.

I also think that something about about the need for clear-cut answers (i.e. without the necessity for judging) as a reason for all the technicalities and conditions would be appropriate.

Yup. I agree, again.
 
What can I say but... thank you all for being so open to this!

I don't want to address all the points that were made, but I do want to address some of them:

RE 4.2 "everything they can possibly think of":
That phrase is definitely getting yanked in the next rev. Way too harsh, I agree, and I definitely didn't mean to make it sound like the JREF would cheat. My writing style gets hyperbolic at times, so I'm not surprised that one hyperbole escaped the editing process. You should have seen the first draft...

RE 1.4 and passing the prelim:
I don't have a complete history of the Challenge, so I put as much in as I knew. The pre-1982 stuff I got from my copy of FLIM-FLAM!, and the post-1997 stuff I got from these boards. If anyone knows of a reliable source for the history in the missing 15 years, let me know and I'll incorporate it.

RE 2.6 and who is the defendant:
This is tricky. When you get right down to it, it's not like a trial, it's like a duel. The JREF is playing the part of the challenger - the one slapping with the gauntlet - and the applicant is the one whose face has been slapped by the gauntlet. The trick is that it's a "class-action duel", if you will, with one entity (Randi) challenging an entire class of people (those who believe in the paranormal). When one person in that class steps forward and says "I accept", it's not really obvious who is slapping whom. I know that the JREF considers itself the challenger - it's called the Million Dollar Challenge, after all - and so I am abiding by their perception of their role. That's why they got morphed into the "plaintiff" role in the trial analogy.


That said, I want you all to know that I really do appreciate all the cheers of approval and the suggestions!
 
Re: Re: Re: The JREF Million Dollar Challenge Unofficial FAQ

One more comment:
Beady said:
It is not JREF's task or intent to defeat the claimant. The intent in offering the prize, as I understand it, is to make it worthwhile for paranormal claimants to submit themselves to formal testing.
I disagree, and I think the actions and words of Randi and KRAMER towards applicants bear my interpretation out. They are not hoping that something paranormal gets discovered, like the X Prize wanted a civilian to build a spacecraft; they want the sellers of the paranormal to stop defrauding their customers, and the believers of the paranormal to face the facts that the people they give money to can't really do what they say they can do.

This is no less noble a goal than wanting to find something paranormal, but it is definitely not the same goal.

The analogy to the X Prize would be for the funder of the X Prize to be of the belief that a civilian could never build a spaceworthy craft, but there were many civilians around that said that they already had.
Consider: If the JREF prize is ever won, JREF will go down in history as a patron that helped broaden the scientific horizon.
Oh, for sure. But I believe that they would rather go down in history as the organization that wiped out paranormal belief once and for all.
 
Beleth said:
RE 2.6 and who is the defendant:
This is tricky. When you get right down to it, it's not like a trial, it's like a duel. The JREF is playing the part of the challenger - the one slapping with the gauntlet - and the applicant is the one whose face has been slapped by the gauntlet. The trick is that it's a "class-action duel", if you will, with one entity (Randi) challenging an entire class of people (those who believe in the paranormal). When one person in that class steps forward and says "I accept", it's not really obvious who is slapping whom. I know that the JREF considers itself the challenger - it's called the Million Dollar Challenge, after all - and so I am abiding by their perception of their role. That's why they got morphed into the "plaintiff" role in the trial analogy.


That said, I want you all to know that I really do appreciate all the cheers of approval and the suggestions!

I'm thinking of it in the same way I think of the difference between criminal and civil law. In the analogy of criminal law, the JREF would represent the state, and the burden of proof would fall upon them. However, in civil law, the challenge applicant would represent the claimant, and the burden of proof would fall upon them.
 
-My powers didn't manifest this time because conditions weren't right. How long do I have to wait before I can reapply?
-I don't like KRAMER. I want someone else to process my application
(and/or)
-I have a complaint about (noun/verb/adjective/invective/participle). Who can I contact about that?
-How is Randi involved in all this? And what is his grudge against Sylvia Browne?
 
Hmm, heres another one:

-"I'm under 18, can I apply?"


Shera
(And no, I'm not under 18, that was just for the FAQ.)
 
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Beleth, I know Randi turned down the idea of this FAQ but I would hope that he would be open to changing his mind when he sees the quality of your work and the value to JREF and Kramer in simplifying their lives.

Here is one great bit ATTA...er, um Girl? Boy? It? Whatever. Anyway, ATTA Beleth.
 
not simplifying, rather complicating

while at first glance it seems like a good idea, there are loopholes large enough to drive a mack truck through and the end result will be more work for KRAMER answering eMails pertaining to the FAQ itself! This forum already has proven that we ourselves have disputes and questions and additional points or interpretations. Imagine the types of queries and technical issues that the general public or woos themselves will ask to be resolved?

Just go to any website like eBay, which has a comprehensive FAQ and well-established community forums (like this) and then look at the volume of eMails they get daily which request clarifications for statements in the FAQ itself ~~~ and they have a full-time staff dealing with all sorts of technical issues. KRAMER, bless his heart, is going to be inundated with people asking stuff like, "well, your FAQ says monkeys out the butt are paranormal, can I apply if sprites fly out of my nose?"

Beleth, really, what caused you to pursue this and post it? What was your motivation, even after being told it wasn't wanted?
Just curious.
 
Re: not simplifying, rather complicating

webfusion said:
while at first glance it seems like a good idea, there are loopholes large enough to drive a mack truck through

Excellent. Care to point them out so we can work on closing them?

Originally posted by webfusion
and the end result will be more work for KRAMER answering eMails pertaining to the FAQ itself! This forum already has proven that we ourselves have disputes and questions and additional points or interpretations. Imagine the types of queries and technical issues that the general public or woos themselves will ask to be resolved?

Well, for one, if a question comes up enough, it would be added to the faq. The faq, even at v1.0, is far better an explanation of minutiae than the challenge rules in and of themselves. And far better PR, too. Plus, it makes an easy reference for journalists and others who might want to know more about the challenge without actually applying.

Originally posted by webfusion
Just go to any website like eBay, which has a comprehensive FAQ and well-established community forums (like this) and then look at the volume of eMails they get daily which request clarifications for statements in the FAQ itself ~~~ and they have a full-time staff dealing with all sorts of technical issues.

A fair point. But ebay is one of the busiest sites on the net and offers a far more complicated product, technolgically, legally and in number of people involved. And they have a much larger target market.

Do have any statistics on the number of emails ebay gets that request clarification of information in their FAQ?

Originally posted by webfusion KRAMER, bless his heart, is going to be inundated with people asking stuff like, "well, your FAQ says monkeys out the butt are paranormal, can I apply if sprites fly out of my nose?"

As a joke, maybe. But only if the FAQ draws more attention to the site from bored teenagers. And KRAMER already gets lots of claims that are just as bizarre. Plus, both of these are easy, if not necesarilly pleasant, to test.

Originally posted by webfusion
Beleth, really, what caused you to pursue this and post it? What was your motivation, even after being told it wasn't wanted?
Just curious.

I can't speak for Beleth's motivations, but would you accept "It's a good idea and I think Randi'll change his mind when he sees the final version."?

Thanks Beleth. This is great stuff.
 
Re: not simplifying, rather complicating

webfusion said:
while at first glance it seems like a good idea, there are loopholes large enough to drive a mack truck through
Like what?

and the end result will be more work for KRAMER answering eMails pertaining to the FAQ itself!
I disagree. I guess we'll have to let time tell.

This forum already has proven that we ourselves have disputes and questions and additional points or interpretations.
I was expecting that. After a few edits (I predict no more than four) I expect it to die down. Every issue still open at that point will be at the agree-to-disagree stage.

For instance. I fully expect my applicant-as-defendant interpretation to come to loggerheads on this board. I am open to convincing otherwise, but I also make no secret that I believe that my current interpretation is the same as the JREF party line, and any successful counterargument will have to convince me of the error of that belief.

Imagine the types of queries and technical issues that the general public or woos themselves will ask to be resolved?
Like what?

Just go to any website like eBay, which has a comprehensive FAQ and well-established community forums (like this) and then look at the volume of eMails they get daily which request clarifications for statements in the FAQ itself ~~~ and they have a full-time staff dealing with all sorts of technical issues.
And yet they still have a FAQ, and therefore think that having a FAQ is better than not having a FAQ.

KRAMER, bless his heart, is going to be inundated with people asking stuff like, "well, your FAQ says monkeys out the butt are paranormal, can I apply if sprites fly out of my nose?"
And he can answer "Yes." How hard is that?

But this reminds me of another point I wanted to bring up. Did anyone find the buttmonkey example objectionable personally? I mean, in an "I am offended at that" sort of way, and not in an "I can see how someone else might be offended" sort of way? If you were, please PM me.

Beleth, really, what caused you to pursue this and post it?
I saw a need, and I had the time, the ability, and the desire to fill that need.

What was your motivation, even after being told it wasn't wanted?
On the contrary. A great many people have said that they wanted it, and only one of them has changed his mind about wanting it. It is my deepest hope that, after reading it and reading the reactions to it, he changes his mind back.

Besides, where would humanity be if we only did things that someone else wanted us to do?
 

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