The infallible Pope asks a question

[Admiral]

Of course he doesn't "know" the answer, assuming he thinks it a valid question.

The point here is that the events in question were quite obviously overlooked by people who had alternative courses of action available. The Catholic church is plenty guilty in that regard as is well documented and I don't know where the Pope comes off asking God why he allowed it. Sounds like a cop-out to me.

If you believed in God, would you want to know why the Holocaust happened? Wouldn't you be furious at Him?

 

[blutoski]

Ahh, but have you considered how such subtle planning was planted in their minds in the first place?

Oh, yes, but this contradicts the claim that this is an example of how God acts but permits free will. If the German command had their minds altered, even in advance, they were not exercising free will.

 

[El Greco]

Maybe these are the first sparks of atheism for the Pope. I'd be willing to miss up to hmmm... 5 World Cup matches if the Pope would turn into an atheist.

 

[Admiral]

Oh, yes, but this contradicts the claim that this is an example of how God acts but permits free will. If the German command had their minds altered, even in advance, they were not exercising free will.

Good point. I suppose someone (not me, I frankly don't believe that religion is as simple as this) could argue that God affected the outcome of the battle by, say, doing something as simple as changing the weather or causing mechanical failures, something that historians don't necessarily point to as the turning point. Another argument would be that God saved soldiers simply by inspiring many civilians- British and French- to help in the evacuation.

 

[blutoski]

Good point. I suppose someone (not me, I frankly don't believe that religion is as simple as this) could argue that God affected the outcome of the battle by, say, doing something as simple as changing the weather or causing mechanical failures, something that historians don't necessarily point to as the turning point. Another argument would be that God saved soldiers simply by inspiring many civilians- British and French- to help in the evacuation.

Yes, and until the German documents were located, weather was the main theory about why some very capable Panzer divisions just sat there a few miles away.

The problem, however, is that the French had a pretty big month of power-prayer, which resulted in their country being overrun. It can't be a coincidence that the German command executed their strategy exactly as planned: take Belgium, Netherlands, France, but spare the BEF as a gesture, so the British will be amenable to signing a truce.

 

[Elind]

If you believed in God, would you want to know why the Holocaust happened? Wouldn't you be furious at Him?

Do you think the Pope was expressing fury? Your question is silly since nobody would believe in a god if that type of question didn't have any number of self satisfying answers.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Maybe these are the first sparks of atheism for the Pope. I'd be willing to miss up to hmmm... 5 World Cup matches if the Pope would turn into an atheist.

Right...The POPE is turning into an Atheist!









OH, BTW did you hear the news? Hell just froze over and pigs are starting to fly!

 

[Elind]

Oh, yes, but this contradicts the claim that this is an example of how God acts but permits free will. If the German command had their minds altered, even in advance, they were not exercising free will.

Even miniscule nano size interference by a god eliminates free will entirely. However contradictions are a staple of all religion so as long as the "interference" is subtle and perhaps long term (since the future is known by gods), then the illusion of free will can be called free will by those who want to.

 

[Elind]

Another argument would be that God saved soldiers simply by inspiring many civilians- British and French- to help in the evacuation.

And all those civilians might not have had enough humanity in them to do that of their own free will? Kind of insulting suggestion if you ask me. I don't want to be mean, but I see you digging a deeper hole here with these arguments.

 

[Elind]

Ouch

 

[Admiral]

And all those civilians might not have had enough humanity in them to do that of their own free will? Kind of insulting suggestion if you ask me. I don't want to be mean, but I see you digging a deeper hole here with these arguments.

If you look at the situation leading up to WWII, you see a lot of examples of people that are sadly deficient in humanity in those that tolerated persecution (the Catholic Church being one such party).

 

[Elind]

If you look at the situation leading up to WWII, you see a lot of examples of people that are sadly deficient in humanity in those that tolerated persecution (the Catholic Church being one such party).

So, all I hear you saying is that when people are nice it's because of God's love (subtle touch), but when they are mean it's because that's how he made them.

 

[Admiral]

So, all I hear you saying is that when people are nice it's because of God's love (subtle touch), but when they are mean it's because that's how he made them.

First of all, if you look back you'll see that I'm defending the point of view of a minister at my church, not my own. (I'm not saying this because I'm trying to "escape from my position," but because it's honestly not my belief that WWII was won because of God.) I think the issue is that I consider this a discussion of philosophy, while you're used to arguing about God with theists who try to convince you about things...

To quote Darwin, "What my own views may be is a question of no consequence to any one but myself." The fact that I'm a Christian doesn't mean you should discuss these issues with me any differently than if I were an atheist. All I did was offer a suggestion for a Christian response to the Pope's question- and you did a great job arguing against it. So you're probably right, there's no good response to the question.

So I want to go back to the post where you accused the Pope of "copping out"- you admit that if you were the Pope, you would want an answer to that question, so what's wrong with him asking it?

 

[Elind]

First part: You are right that I thought I was debating with you, not some surrogate. I think if you do that you should say so, and state your own opinion, up front. I'm not too interested in your minister's opinion unless you invite him here in person.

Last part: The Pope of all people should not be questioning God (his god); in my opinion. I thought that was quite obvious. He should be guiding the flock in understanding what is perhaps the most common of all such questions. Why does God allow evil, or, why does God cause evil?

As an aside, I propose that it is because God is evil and likes to have fun with sentient beings. GOOD is just the carrot on the stick that makes the game more interesting.

 

[rocketdodger]

Not only did god not prevent it, he encouraged it -- try convincing 6 million die-hard athiests to march into ovens and gas chambers. I have to believe that they wouldn't go so peacefully...

 

[Admiral]

Not only did god not prevent it, he encouraged it -- try convincing 6 million die-hard athiests to march into ovens and gas chambers. I have to believe that they wouldn't go so peacefully...

I cannot believe that you would insult the victims of the holocaust by implying that if they had wanted to live, they could have, or that their religion placated them so that they didn't mind being massacred.

 

[Elind]

I cannot believe that you would insult the victims of the holocaust by implying that if they had wanted to live, they could have, or that their religion placated them so that they didn't mind being massacred.

A bit crude I agree; but I suspect that what he meant was their faith told them that a god would look after them. Not the example I would pick, but we all put our foot in it from time to time, just like the Pope.

 

[Huntster]

I doubt that you are so so nice to GWB when he puts his foot in it, regularly.

No doubt.

...The point here is that the Pope is not a "guy" who does something "good" a few generations late, or shows "courage" for the same. He IS the Catholic church representing a billion or so people.

If his question had been; "...please forgive US for allowing this to happen" or something similar, then I would be inclined to shrug like you....

The Church, like the rest of humanity, had a mixed record during WWII. While the Church worked to save victims as well as end the war, they were not successful in either account. The war and it's evil was only ended with overwhelming counter-force.

Damned shame, isn't it?

...In this case he appears to actually lay the blame on God. I think that is really weird, or at the very least a foot in mouth subconscious screw up.

Actually, I felt he was asking about himself, those whom he knew, and his world at that time.

Yeah, it was a foot in the mouth. He was likely despairing on his own role as the Pope at a time like this; especially post John Paul II.

He shoulda' prayed in silence, but I understand.

I have no idea what he's gonna do to help the current situation.

He might be overwhelmed.

 

[Kopji]

I doubt that you are so so nice to GWB when he puts his foot in it, regularly.

It is helpful for me to acknowledge 'right action' of an adversary, and I do that for GWB as well as the Pope. No one does all good or all evil, and I try to keep that in mind.

The point here is that the Pope is not a "guy" who does something "good" a few generations late, or shows "courage" for the same. He IS the Catholic church representing a billion or so people.

Ok, I don't know enough about Catholics to evaluate that. The Catholics I know don't seem to think that the Pope thinks or speaks for them.

This seemed more of a personal visit rather than a carefully choreographed I AM THE POPE kind of visit.

If his question had been; "...please forgive US for allowing this to happen" or something similar, then I would be inclined to shrug like you.

Again, the visit seemed more like part of a personal struggle he is going through.
The holocaust was due to more than just one group, but I agree with your wording. The Catholics taking it all on would be seen as arrogant, the role of secular companies like IBM are not easily dismissed.

In this case he appears to actually lay the blame on God. I think that is really weird, or at the very least a foot in mouth subconscious screw up.

This seems unremarkable to me.

 

[Beerina]

'Papal infallibility' eliminates debate about what is appropriate Catholic belief, because the Pope has the final word, and it will be honoured in heaven.

This is why the Vatican can change its mind, and there's no panic about what happened to the souls who respected the older canon.

The pope is infallble only when he speacs ex cathedra, which, IIRC, has only happened twice, and it's a relatively recent invention, mid 1800's.