The Incredible Shrinking Collie Brain

[aggle-rithm]

For several years I have accepted without skepticism the claim that, in the zeal to make the collie breed more attractive by straightening the line from the nose to the top of the head (in profile), breeders have made the cranium, and therefore the collies' brain, smaller. I have used this several times as an example of breed standards run amuck and ruining the health and/or viability of dogs in pursuit of aesthetics.

Now I am told by a collie breeder that this is a myth. However, a collie breeder is hardly an unbiased source.

Does anyone have more detailed information on this? I haven't been able to find much online.

 

[dogjones]

Where I come "collie" means cannabis.

Which makes your title kind of perfect.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know. I do know that in some breeds (Cavalier King Charles?) the cranium has shrunk due to the breed standards, but the brain did not shrink with it, leading to what is believed to be a bunch of dogs with severe, recurrent, unrtreatable headaches.

Rolfe.

 

[ehcks]

While attempting to breed their head to look more attractive, and perhaps smaller, we're also breeding dogs to be more intelligent.

The brain wouldn't be shrinking at the same rate as the skull.

 

[Tacita]

I believe I have seen that on one of Animal Planet's shows, about the Collie's skull being too small for its brain.

 

[Emet]

While attempting to breed their head to look more attractive, and perhaps smaller, we're also breeding dogs to be more intelligent.

Since canine intelligence is pretty hard to measure, I'm not sure how we are accomplishing that through selective breeding.

 

[RationalVetMed]

I don't know. I do know that in some breeds (Cavalier King Charles?) the cranium has shrunk due to the breed standards, but the brain did not shrink with it, leading to what is believed to be a bunch of dogs with severe, recurrent, unrtreatable headaches.

Rolfe.

Cavalier King Charlses have brains?

Shome mishtake surely.

Yuri

 

[ehcks]

Since canine intelligence is pretty hard to measure, I'm not sure how we are accomplishing that through selective breeding.

Generally, how well does the dog respond to training? Maybe it's not the best measure, but I'm sure it's used.

 

[Emet]

Generally, how well does the dog respond to training? Maybe it's not the best measure, but I'm sure it's used.

I don't doubt at all that breeders breed for all sorts of behaviors. I've known many.

But in the field, I'm unaware of any scientific studies that demonstrate the heritability of a dog's ability to learn.

Without stating things in absolutes, good trainers can teach most dogs to do most things that they are physically capable of doing, regardless of their breed or heritage.

 

[GlennB]

Cavalier King Charlses have brains?

Shome mishtake surely.

Yuri

They're brighter than Springers, so they must have at least a vestige.

 

[GlennB]

But in the field, I'm unaware of any scientific studies that demonstrate the heritability of a dog's ability to learn.

Interesting, and I don't claim to know the answer. But here's an anecdote

We once had a mutt, 1/4 Collie, 1/4 Lab and we think 1/2 Borzoi.

When he was young he ran ahead of us and around a hedge on a walk in open Somerset countryside, a place where you just don't find sheep to worry. Except there were, trucked in as part of some scheme or other, or being babysat by a local farmer. So I jogged to catch up and found Benjie the young mutt carefully circling the flock of sheep, creeping, running, creeping, as the sheep packed closer together. It was uncanny.

It was also my only encounter with an electric fence, felt in a delicate spot too.

 

[jadebox]

I don't know. I do know that in some breeds (Cavalier King Charles?) the cranium has shrunk due to the breed standards, but the brain did not shrink with it, leading to what is believed to be a bunch of dogs with severe, recurrent, unrtreatable headaches.

I hope that's not true. The other day, I thought about how we selectively breed pets to desire attention such as petting. I had the horrible thought that it could get to the point where the animals would suffer when they didn't get the attention.

-- Roger

 

[SalG13]

I know I read this in the book "Animals in Translation" (by Temple Grandin). I do not recall if she mentions how we know this.

 

[Emet]

I know I read this in the book "Animals in Translation" (by Temple Grandin). I do not recall if she mentions how we know this.

You have a good memory. And I have a lot of respect for Temple Grandin. But if you read the excerpt, it appears speculative at best:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1W...&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Tiktaalik]

I haven't seen this film, but just heard it reviewed - of course, breeders are disputing it's accuracy:

http://www.passionateproductions.co.uk/film_pedigree_exposed.htm

It has a Cav King Charles on the website - not sure if it specifically covers cranium/brain size.

Around here there are a lot of heelers (like my dogs) and border collies, and after seeing them working sheep, etc., it's weird to view Westminster - the dogs look like a totally different breed to me.

 

[quarky]

Man's best friend shouldn't have to endure this humiliation.
I believe that its fair to say that humans wouldn't have survived without dogs.
We owe them something better than dog-show looks.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Man's best friend shouldn't have to endure this humiliation.
I believe that its fair to say that humans wouldn't have survived without dogs.
We owe them something better than dog-show looks.

Amen to that.

 

[aggle-rithm]

While attempting to breed their head to look more attractive, and perhaps smaller, we're also breeding dogs to be more intelligent.

The brain wouldn't be shrinking at the same rate as the skull.

There are working dogs, and there are show dogs. What I'm talking about are show dogs.

In order to get a desirable show dog, it's best that they don't exhibit much behavior at all. The brain is superfluous and just gets in the way.

 

[aggle-rithm]

My wife told me recently about a collie who won best in show despite being lame. This is extraordinary, because in almost any type of dog competition, the dog is immediately excused if found to be lame. In a collie show, however, the judges look at the head and the head alone.

Theoretically, if you could figure out how to keep it alive, you could bring a collie head in a jar and it could win best in show.

Or it could look like this: