Again book of Job.
So, Satan makes it happen, or maybe it just happens. Your choice.
The Idiot's Tale
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Again book of Job.
So, Satan makes it happen, or maybe it just happens. Your choice.
Nope, in Job he goes beyond simply permitting the bad things into explicitly authorising those bad things.
SimonD
Rouge Element
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Doesn't the devil basically goad god into performing all types of horribleness onto poor old Job and his family?
I disagree. Satan asks God for permission; God gives permission. God does not give Satan authorization; He does not tell Satan to do these things on His behalf or otherwise obligate Satan to do them.
CatInTheBag
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Huh? Which dictionary are you reading?
American Heritage. The primary definition is to give authority or power.
The distinction between permission and authorization is that permission means you're acting on your own but the other person won't stop you. Authorization means you're acting on their behalf.
My point was that Satan was acting for Satan, not for God. If you disagree with the semantics the point still stands.
Oh please:
Not only does God give Satan authorisation he even places limits on that, plus of course as the verse clearly states Satan is simply acting as God's hand - if he wasn't then the whole tale makes no sense at all as it would not be God that was cursing Job.
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No. God did not curse Job; Satan did.
And the whole tale makes perfect sense; humans blame God when Satan is at fault. Hence the entire chapters where Job's friends mistakenly blame Job when Job has actually done nothing wrong, because they (and Job) assume that God has done these things when in fact He has not.
The book of Job disagrees with your interpretation: "....They comforted him and consoled him for all the trouble the Lord had brought on him," not for the trouble Satan or anyone else had brought on him
Gord_in_Toronto
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And, of course, the Book of Job is just a presage of the trick that God and His Buddy Satan have played on you with the whole Jesus Christ the Son of God Trick. You have fallen for this and been perverted from belief in the True God of the Old Testament.
For accepting the False Saviour you will burn in Hell for All Eternity.
Or at least you get a brain.
Yup, it shows that God is a complete *******.
No, it doesn't. People blame God, but part of what makes this book interesting is that it shows that what people blame on God is often not God's doing.
The fact that Job's relatives blamed God says something about people, not something about God.
It starts with:
".... But extend your[God] hand and strike everything he has ...."
and ends with
"...consoled him for all the trouble the Lord had brought on him ..."
the words of Satan
the beliefs of his relatives.
And what are the words of God on this matter?
(emphasis added, case rested)
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist
Why? And who?
So as I said god authorises the angel's actions against Job. (Plus of course what you are saying is that we can't believe what we read in the Bible...)
If by "believe what we read in the Bible" you mean "take as a matter of undisputed fact each phrase in the Bible without paying attention to context", then I would agree that we can't.
People try to take statements from quotations from humans and even Satan and claim that if we don't believe those statements to be true, we're not believing the Bible to be true. The three most important things to keep in mind when understanding any text, especially the Bible: context, context, and context.
Heck, if I were allowed to quote individual passages out of context from Supreme Court opinions the way you people quote Bible passages, I could prove anything I want legally, too. Quote from the dissenting opinion, quote from the Court explaining the arguments being made by the losing party, and then call it a day.
Of course, honest hermaneutics don't work this way, but since when do opponents of the Bible care to look at it honestly?
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Nope I meant what I said, that is that you hold that we can't believe what we read in the Bible, which is fine - no skin of my nose and all that.
... which certainly doesn't follow from anything I've said. You're welcome to believe that based on what you've said if you'd like, though.
Apart from it does follow from when you say, for example, that we can't believe the bits about what Satan said or indeed about what god said.