The Historical Jesus III

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Oh dear, it seems we have a schism in the ranks. Some like Tacitus for his hatred of Christians, some think that Tacitus is not authoritative, some like what actual honest to goodness Nazis have to say in their glorification of German nationalism

Arthur Drews? Oh dear.... Next we'll be looking at Mein Kampf for a history of the Jews.


Do you know what sarcasm is?

Even if I love Tacitus' passage it does not mean that I think it has any value whatsoever to bear upon the question of the historicity of a moronic blaspheming delusional hobo upon whom Christian jihadist zealots CULTISTS fabricated and forged their
"MOST MISCHIEVOUS SUPERSTITION and their HIDEOUS and SHAMEFUL EVIL beliefs were HATEFUL of humanity." — Great Historian Tacitus​

...
Tacitus obviously got his information about anything Christian from the Christian jihadist zealots CULTISTS of his era. So it is utterly useless for anyone trying to extrude and wring out some information about Jesus from it since it is nothing but hearsay from criminal cultists about their sky daddy generations after the fabrication of the Jesus fairy tale in the Buybull. But yet his description is quite historically ACCURATE and describes so perfectly the Christian ethos.
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Do you know what sarcasm is?

Even if I love Tacitus' passage it does not mean that I think it has any value whatsoever to bear upon the question of the historicity of a moronic blaspheming delusional hobo upon whom Christian jihadist zealots CULTISTS fabricated and forged their
"MOST MISCHIEVOUS SUPERSTITION and their HIDEOUS and SHAMEFUL EVIL beliefs were HATEFUL of humanity." — Great Historian Tacitus​

Who suffered the extreme penalty under Pilate.

Great historian Tacitus.

we do enjoy, however, that you quote your own posts repeatedly.

Query, how does a moronic blaspheming delusional hobo delusionally blaspheme if he doesn't exist? It seems that the delusional hobo must exist in order to blaspheme, and how does one blaspheme against something unless the beliefs actually exist? You have solved the riddle! God bless us everyone!
 
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Who suffered the extreme penalty under Pilate.

Great historian Tacitus.


Yes... he was reporting the hearsay about the "most mischievous superstitions" that Christian jihadist zealots cultists used to believe about their "hideous and shamefully evil and hateful" cult.
 
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Dear fellow laymen observe a sample of chicanery for Jesus' sake!

disingenuous misquotation ... and skullduggery ... Jesus fans ... casuistic ...lies for Jesus' sake ... deliberate misquotation artfully ...straw manning ... FORGERY and dissimulation TECHNIQUES ... for Jesus' sake
Typical wily huckstering and dissimulation all for the sake of Jesus.
Dear me. These are strong words Leumas. I see you address them to "fellow laymen". Are you under the impression, then, that I am a bishop or something like that?
 
Who suffered the extreme penalty under Pilate.

Great historian Tacitus.

we do enjoy, however, that you quote your own posts repeatedly.

Query, how does a moronic blaspheming delusional hobo delusionally blaspheme if he doesn't exist? It seems that the delusional hobo must exist in order to blaspheme, and how does one blaspheme against something unless the beliefs actually exist? You have solved the riddle! God bless us everyone!

What bizarre nonsense you post.

Romulus must exist to be the founder of Rome?

Ghosts must exist to be the father of Romulus and Christos?

Satan must exist to tempt Christos in the wilderness?

You seem completely unaware of Jewish, Greek, Roman and Egyptian myth/fiction fables.

Christos and Romulus in Tacitus Annals are fiction characters.
 
From wikipedia -
Since the 18th century at least five attempts have been made to challenge the authenticity of the Annals as having been written by someone other than Tacitus, Voltaire's criticism being perhaps the first.[6] Voltaire (d. 1778) was generally critical of Tacitus and said that Tacitus did not comply with the standards for providing a historical background to civilization.[7] In 1878 John Wilson Ross and in 1890 Polydore Hochart suggested that the whole of the Annals had been forged by the Italian scholar Poggio Bracciolini (1380–1459).[8][9][10] According to Robert Van Voorst this was an "extreme hypothesis" which never gained a following among modern scholars.[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_(Tacitus)

6 Clarence W. Mendell (1957) Tacitus: The Man And His Work (Yale University Press/Oxford University Press) p. 219.

7 Arnaldo Momigliano & Riccardo Di Donanto (1992) The Classical Foundations of Modern Historiography. Univ California Press, p. 127 ISBN 0-520-07870-5

8 John Wilson Ross, Tacitus and Bracciolini: The Annals Forged In The XVth Century ISBN 978-1-4068-4051-3. Originally published London: Diprose and Bateman, 1878.
9 Polydore Hochart (1890) De L'Authenticité Des Annales Et Des Histoires de Tacite; republished by Bibliobazar, 2009 ISBN 1-103-22125-6

10 Robert Van Voorst (2000) Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 42
 
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and
Tacitean studies, centred on the work of Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117) the Ancient Roman historian, constitute an area of scholarship extending beyond the field of history. The work has traditionally been read for its moral instruction, its narrative, and its inimitable prose style; Tacitus has been (and still is) most influential as a political theorist, outside the field of history. The political lessons taken from his work fall roughly into two camps (as identified by Giuseppe Toffanin): the "red Tacitists", who used him to support republican ideals, and the "black Tacitists", those who read his accounts as a lesson in Machiavellian realpolitik.

Though his work is the most reliable source for the history of his era, its factual accuracy is occasionally questioned: the Annals are based in part on secondary sources of unknown reliability, and there are some obvious minor mistakes (for instance confusing the two daughters of Mark Antony and Octavia Minor, both named Antonia). The Histories, written from primary documents and personal knowledge of the Flavian period, is thought to be more accurate, though Tacitus's hatred of Domitian seemingly colored its tone and interpretations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitean_studies
 
Annals is, suspiciously, missing information from around 29 CE to 32 CE: that highly relevant time-frame for the alleged key events at the start of Christianity, in the rule of Tiberius. Robert Drews theorizes that the only plausible explanation for this gap is that the embarrassment of Tacitus making no mention of Jesus’ crucifixion (or associated events such as 'the darkness covering the world' or the appearances of resurrected saints) led to Christian scribes destroying this portion of the text, and to perhaps fabricate the Book 15 reference.1
There are also missing (relevant) books by Philo, and another suspicious gap in Cassius Dio’s Roman History.
.

1 Robert Drews (1984), “The Lacuna in Tacitus’ Annales Book Five in the Light of Christian Traditions”,
American Journal of Ancient History. no. 9: pp. 112-122.​
 
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... Are you under the impression, then, that I am a bishop or something like that?


You really have a knack for fabricating straw men!

I do, however, appreciate your crafty efforts at demonstrating for all to see the subterfuge that the Jesus fairy tale rationalizers have to resort to in order to bamboozle themselves and others that the Christian delusion is not entirely and solely based on artifices and forgeries and fairy tales for centuries peddled off as reality by holy poltroons and charlatans aided by royal brigands and plunderers to corral and fleece their wretched flocks and the pathetic remnants of vanquished survivors in the wake of their holy pillaging.
 
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You really have a knack for fabricating straw men!

And in the title of your post #1581

"Dear fellow laymen observe a sample of chicanery for Jesus' sake!"

You display a knack for fabricating "lay" men!
 
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Annals is, suspiciously, missing information from around 29 CE to 32 CE: that highly relevant time-frame for the alleged key events at the start of Christianity, in the rule of Tiberius. Robert Drews theorizes that the only plausible explanation for this gap is that the embarrassment of Tacitus making no mention of Jesus’ crucifixion (or associated events such as 'the darkness covering the world' or the appearances of resurrected saints) led to Christian scribes destroying this portion of the text, and to perhaps fabricate the Book 15 reference.1
There are also missing (relevant) books by Philo, and another suspicious gap in Cassius Dio’s Roman History.
.

1 Robert Drews (1984), “The Lacuna in Tacitus’ Annales Book Five in the Light of Christian Traditions”,
American Journal of Ancient History. no. 9: pp. 112-122.​

Fortunately critical thinkers know that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor do serious scholars believe that the section was fabricated let alone the entire book, as you seem to claim.

Anti-theists have long been twisted into knots by the simple reference in Tacitus.
 
Hey, I'm an anti-theist. Don't paint us all with the same brush.
Indeed. The Tacitus passage states that there was a person designated Christus who had followers called Chrestianos. It says nothing about the existence of their god.
 
Fortunately critical thinkers know that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor do serious scholars believe that the section was fabricated let alone the entire book, as you seem to claim.

Anti-theists have long been twisted into knots by the simple reference in Tacitus.



16.5, what baseless illogical statement you utter!!!

There is ALWAYS Absence of evidence for figures of myth/fiction.

There is ABSENCE of evidence for an historical Jesus so it is completely reasonable and logical to argue HJ is a figure of fiction.

It was a farce from the start to argue for an HJ WITHOUT evidence.

Theists and apologetics NEVER had any evidence of an HJ and were always involved in logical fallacies.

It is quite illogical and void of reason to assume authenticity of Tacitus Annals is directly related to veracity and historicity.

Tacitus believed myth/fiction characters did exist like Romulus and Christus.

Christus was a figure of myth/fiction.
 
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Indeed. The Tacitus passage states that there was a person designated Christus who had followers called Chrestianos. It says nothing about the existence of their god.

The same 11th century copy of Tacitus Annals 15 does mention Romulus as a figure of history.

An 11th century copy of Tacitus' Annals is not evidence of an obscure historical Jesus.

In addition, obscure HJ was NOT the Anointed [Christus]

Jesus called the Anointed [Christus] was killed [NOT crucified] around c 69 CE based on writings of Josephus.
 
16.5, what baseless illogical statement you utter!!!

There is no reason to get emotional about it, it is just another example of one of the finest Historians of antiquity being thrown under the bus because he mentioned that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."

I've noticed that anti-theists try to desperately discredit Tacitus as a whole because he writes of Romulus, which seemingly discredits his entire work (or perhaps just those parts that anti-theists REALLY don't like, notwithstanding the fact that they actually happened during Tacitus actual life, like the flourishing Christian community in Rome during Nero's reign).

Tacitus is authentic and authoritative on this Christ point, wouldn't it be best to address it head on rather than desperately attacking the foundation of the long proven evidence?
 
The same 11th century copy of Tacitus Annals 15 does mention Romulus as a figure of history.

An 11th century copy of Tacitus' Annals is not evidence of an obscure historical Jesus.

In addition, obscure HJ was NOT the Anointed [Christus]

Jesus called the Anointed [Christus] was killed [NOT crucified] around c 69 CE based on writings of Josephus.
Hi, dejudge. Any new ideas recently?
 
From what source are you quoting these words?

If you have followed the link provided you would know the answer to that question. Stop being lazy and actually follow the links provided.


Fortunately critical thinkers know that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor do serious scholars believe that the section was fabricated let alone the entire book, as you seem to claim.

No True Scotsman fallacy.

Drews' point was NOT that the section was fabricated nor that the entire book forged but that the key part that could have helped confirm the passage was for what ever reason NOT copied by the Christians.

Drews' The witnesses to the historicity of Jesus states

"a) When Tacitus is assumed to have written, about the year 117, that the founder of the sect, Christus, was put to death by the
procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius, Christianity was already an organised religion with a settled tradition. Even the gospels, or at least three of them, are supposed to have then been in existence. Hence Tacitus might have derived his information about Jesus, if not directly from the gospels, at all events indirectly from them by means of oral tradition."

point b) cover the possible forging of this passage. The more relevant part of Drews here is "We have a number of instances in the first centuries of Christian writers who are acquainted with Tacitus, such as Tertullian, Jerome, Orosius, Sidonius Apollinaris,
Sulpicius Severus, and Cassiodorus. It is only in the course of the Middle Ages that this acquaintance with the Roman historian is gradually lost and this not on account of, but in spite of, the passage in Tacitus on the Christians. This testimony of the Roman historian to the supposed first persecution of the Christians would be very valuable to them for many reasons.

As I said a long time ago this is akin to the curious matter of the dog in the night in the story Silver Blaze. The fact the dog did nothing in the night time eliminated the idea that a strange came in and stole the horse...it had to be someone the dog knew.

Drews goes on "Are there, however, no witnesses to the genuineness of the passages of Tacitus in early Christian literature?
There is the letter of Clement of Rome belonging to the end of the first century." But this letter simply says there was persecution and give no name of any emperor much less Nero so no help there.

EVERY bit of supporting evidence for a historical Jesus is a Kusche parrot of the 'this passage is true and historical; prove it is not' variety.
 
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There is no reason to get emotional about it, it is just another example of one of the finest Historians of antiquity being thrown under the bus because he mentioned that Jesus "suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."

I've noticed that anti-theists try to desperately discredit Tacitus as a whole because he writes of Romulus, which seemingly discredits his entire work (or perhaps just those parts that anti-theists REALLY don't like, notwithstanding the fact that they actually happened during Tacitus actual life, like the flourishing Christian community in Rome during Nero's reign).

Tacitus is authentic and authoritative on this Christ point, wouldn't it be best to address it head on rather than desperately attacking the foundation of the long proven evidence?

Your posts are a waste of time. You have ZERO evidence of an historical Jesus.

You had NO idea that Tacitus had serious problems with history and mythology.

Tacitus believed myth/fiction characters like Romulus and Christus were figures of history.

Romulus and Christus were born of a Ghost.

When Romulus and Christus died their bodies vanished and day was turned into night.

Romulus and Christus ascended to heaven AFTER they were raised from the dead.

The assumed HJ was NOT Christus [anointed]

The assumed HJ was an obscure criminal/rebel/preacher/IDIOT/False prophet/ wizard/LIAR/ some unknown crazy man or modern fiction derived from FALSE assertions.
 
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