The Historical Jesus III

[Craig B]

CraigB, you do realise Hadrian had a Serapeum at home in Rome?

No doubt. But does that mean the Serapeum was the same as a Christian church, or that Hadrian was the same as a Christian? He was not. Is it a Christian practice to worship one's deceased homosexual lover as a god? Hadrian did this, and the cult remained in being after his death, remarkably.

This is a "Serapean" practice, in which a god is explicitly "constructed", as Serapis was. But it is not a Christian one.

 

[Mcreal]

No doubt. But does that mean the Serapeum was the same as a Christian church, or that Hadrian was the same as a Christian? He was not.

No. But your points, as is often the case, are beside the point.

The point was that, in Egypt at least, worshipers of Serapis/Sarapis were called 'Christians' (or perhaps Chrestians).

Is it a Christian practice to worship one's deceased homosexual lover as a god?

That's beside the point.

Hadrian did this,

That's beside the point.

and the cult remained in being after his death, remarkably.

That's beside the point.

The cult of Serapis existed before Hadrian's lovers death.

The cult of Serapis existed all around the eastern Mediterranean, and grew all around the eastern Mediterranean in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

This is a "Serapean" practice, in which a god is explicitly "constructed", as Serapis was. But it is not a Christian one.

What is "not a Christian one"?? The practice of memorializing the dead?

You do realise the imagery of Serapis is very similar to the imagery of Jesus?

The imagery of Isis and her son Horis is similar to imagery of Mary and Jesus, too.

 

[dejudge]

The HJ argument is a farce.

Non-apologetic writings of antiquity have not identified any person called Jesus of Nazareth who supposedly lived and performed miracles in Galilee for about 30 years with thousands of people following him to get free food, magical healings and asking him to raise the dead.

Jesus of Nazareth is just pure fiction.

Jesus of Nazareth never had any real existence.

By 115 CE there should have been more biographies and stories [Gospels and Epistles] about Jesus of Nazareth than perhaps all the Emperors of Rome from 6 CE-100 CE yet ALL contemporary writers of antiquity FAILED to mention a SENTENCE from the biographies and stories of Jesus who was called God Creator.

Jewish writers living in and out Judea show ZERO knowledge of the biographies and stories of Jesus of Nazareth.

Roman writers also show ZERO knowledge of the Gospels, Pauline Epistles, the non-Pauline Epistles, bishops of Rome and all persons directly associated with Jesus of Nazareth.

There is ZERO argument FOR or AGAINST the supposed Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples UNTIL the LATE 2nd century by non-apologetic writers.

Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples are 2nd century FICTION characters.

The Gospels and Epistles were UNKNOWN in the 1st century.

 

[Craig B]

No. But your points, as is often the case, are beside the point.

The point was that, in Egypt at least, worshipers of Serapis/Sarapis were called 'Christians' (or perhaps Chrestians).

The Hadrian letter apart, which we are currently discussing, what other evidence do you wish to bring forward to establish that?

 

[Craig B]

What is "not a Christian one"?? The practice of memorializing the dead?

"Memorialising" a homosexual lover by declaring him to be a god and building temples and cities in his honour, where he is worshipped as a divinity, is not a Christian practice. There's more than one way of "memorialising" people, and Hadrian's way was not the Christian way.

 

[Mcreal]

The Hadrian letter apart, which we are currently discussing, what other evidence do you wish to bring forward to establish that?

There is apparently an ancient bust of Serapis in a museum somewhere with the inscription 'Serapis Christos/Chrestus' (the Museum of London(?)).

Ahmed Osman (2005) Christianity: an Ancient Egyptian Religion. Bear & Company; ISBN-10: 1591430461, ISBN-13: 978-1591430469

1. "Shows that the Romans fabricated their own version of Christianity and burned the Alexandrian library as a way of maintaining political power

"With the help of modern archaeological findings, Osman shows that Christianity survived as an Egyptian mystery cult until the fourth century A.D., when the Romans embarked on a mission of suppression and persecution. In A.D. 391 the Roman-appointed Bishop Theophilus led a mob into the Serapeum quarter of Alexandria and burned the Alexandrian library, destroying all records of the true Egyptian roots of Christianity. The Romans' version of Christianity, manufactured to maintain political power, claimed that Christianity originated in Judaea."

http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-An-Ancient-Egyptian-Religion/dp/1591430461​

2. Osman argues that Christianity has its roots in the Alexandrian Cult of Serapis.

http://www.ru.org/spirituality/egyptian-origins-of-the-judeo-christian-religion.html​

Note that Serapis, Osiris, and Isis were sometime conflated -

http://archive.museumoflondon.org.uk/Londinium/analysis/religiouslife/deities/​

 

[Mcreal]

"Memorialising" a homosexual lover by declaring him to be a god and building temples and cities in his honour, where he is worshipped as a divinity, is not a Christian practice. There's more than one way of "memorialising" people, and Hadrian's way was not the Christian way.

Christianity was hardly established in the early 2nd century, and maybe not in Rome, if at all.

 

[dejudge]

Christian writers of antiquity have admitted there were people called Christians who did not believe or accept the Jesus stories.

Examine "First Apology" attributed to Justin.

There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god........

And a man, Meander, also a Samaritan, of the town Capparetaea, a disciple of Simon, and inspired by devils, we know to have deceived many while he was in Antioch by his magical art. He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die..........

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator.....


All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians

Followers of Simon, Menander and Marcion were ALL called Christians even though they did not believe or accept the Jesus stories.

In addition, we have "Against Heresies", "Refutation of All Heresies", "Prescription Against the Heretics" and others which show that people called Christians did not believe or accepted the Jesus stories.

The evidence is overwhelming from apologetic and non-apologetic writings.

The words 'Christ' and 'Christian' do NOT necesarily refer to the assumed Jesus or his followers.

 

[Craig B]

Christianity was hardly established in the early 2nd century, and maybe not in Rome, if at all.

So the Hadrian letter is a forgery, by that chronology.

Hadrian did not spend his time in Rome, but much of it in the East. His predecessor Trajan a Many years earlier had received a report on the existence of Christianity, for at least the two previous decades, in Bithynia. The Pliny correspondence makes no mention of Serapis.

 

[Craig B]

There is apparently an ancient bust of Serapis in a museum somewhere with the inscription 'Serapis Christos/Chrestus' (the Museum of London(?)).

Anything more on that?

Ahmed Osman ... Shows that the Romans fabricated their own version of Christianity and burned the Alexandrian library as a way of maintaining political power ... argues that Christianity has its roots in the Alexandrian Cult of Serapis ...

Ahmed Osman?!?

His first hypothesis was that Joseph was the father-in-law of Amenhotep III, Yuya. In 1987 this claim provided the basis for his first book, Stranger in the Valley of the Kings.
Osman identified the Semitic-born Egyptian official Joseph with the Egyptian official Yuya, and asserted the identification of Hebrew liberator Moses with the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten (as did Sigmund Freud in his book Moses and Monotheism).

Ahmed Osman has also claimed that Moses and Akhenaten were the same person ... This would mesh with Osman's other claim that Akhenaten's maternal grandfather Yuya was the same person as the Biblical Joseph.

A number of Osman's positions are in conflict with mainstream Egyptology, including conventional Egyptian chronology. Some Egyptologists have gone as far as rejecting them as unacademic conjecture while others do not consider them worth refuting.[1][2] Donald B. Redford wrote a scathing review of Stranger in the Valley of the Kings for Biblical Archaeology Review.

In his Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion (2005), Osman claims that Christianity did not originate in Judea but is the remnant of an Ancient Egyptian mystery cult that was suppressed and transformed by the Roman authorities.

He also argues that Jesus was not Jewish but was actually the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamun and that there was no Joshua, just a confusion between the names Jesus and Joshua ...

Osman states that the reason mainstream Egyptologists do not accept his ideas is because, "Egyptologists have established their careers on their interpretations", and that to accept other theories could give them less authority.

This is pure nutcase stuff, with the inevitable paranoia exhibited in the last sentence.

ETA See also http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2011/01/ahmed-osman-no-stranger-to-revisionist-paleobabble/

 

[Mcreal]

So the Hadrian letter is a forgery, by that chronology.

No. The point is that the terms Chrestus/Christos and Chrestians/Christians were used for followers of mystery religions, such as the cult of Serapis, and possibly others, such as the Osiris, Isis, Horus cults with which Serapis was often associated.

Hadrian did not spend his time in Rome, but much of it in the East.

Hadrian's Serapeum was there -

Taylor, R. (2004). Hadrian's Serapeum in Rome. American Journal of Archaeology, 108(2), 223-266.​

His predecessor Trajan many years earlier had received a report on the existence of Christianity, for at least the two previous decades, in Bithynia. The Pliny correspondence makes no mention of Serapis.

No, but the Pliny correspondence makes no mention of Jesus, either.

None of them mention Jesus: not Tacitus, Suetonius, younger-Pliny, or Hadrian.

 

[Craig B]

No. The point is that the terms Chrestus/Christos and Chrestians/Christians were used for followers of mystery religions, such as the cult of Serapis, and possibly others, such as the Osiris, Isis, Horus cults with which Serapis was often associated.


Hadrian's Serapeum was there -

Taylor, R. (2004). Hadrian's Serapeum in Rome. American Journal of Archaeology, 108(2), 223-266.​

No, but the Pliny correspondence makes no mention of Jesus, either.

None of them mention Jesus: not Tacitus, Suetonius, younger-Pliny, or Hadrian.

That's misdirection. Up to now we have been mentioning only "Christ". You bring this up now. But we have been discussing whether "Christ" is equivalent to Serapis.

So, I say, there's mention of Christ in Pliny as an unfamiliar object of worship. Pliny must have been perfectly familiar, by contrast, with the cult of Serapis. They cannot have been the same thing.

For more on Ahmed Osman, I offer you and other readers this hilarious site.

 

[Mcreal]

Originally Posted by Mcreal
Ahmed Osman ... Shows that the Romans fabricated their own version of Christianity and burned the Alexandrian library as a way of maintaining political power ... argues that Christianity has its roots in the Alexandrian Cult of Serapis ...

Ahmed Osman?!? This is pure nutcase stuff, with the inevitable paranoia exhibited in the last sentence -

'Osman states that the reason mainstream Egyptologists do not accept his ideas is because, "Egyptologists have established their careers on their interpretations", and that to accept other theories could give them less authority.'​

The same applies to Christian apologists and Christian 'Biblical-scholars'.

Ahmed Osman is a fascinating and highly controversial individual. His international bestselling books, such as Jesus in the House of the Pharaohs, Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt, and Out of Egypt: The Roots of Christianity Revealed are written from the experience of more than twenty-five years of research. Each book is as engaging and thought-provoking Osman is, not to mention very polemical. Some have declared them to be a paradigm shift in historical and religious thought, while others claim they are nothing more than unadulterated blasphemy.

http://www.ru.org/spirituality/egyptian-origins-of-the-judeo-christian-religion.html

Osman believes that evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as the Nag Hammadi Library, show that early Christianity followed two very diverse paths. Osman feels that “there was the Jewish/Christian Essene community in Palestine, with which can associated with both John the Baptist and Simon Peter. On the other hand there was the Gnostic Gentile Christian community in Egypt, where St Paul was initiated to his different Gospel when he withdrew for three years in the Sinai. As the Jewish/Christian community of Peter disappeared in 70 AD, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, it was the Gnostic community of Paul that spread Christianity among the Gentile nations". According to Osman, "the name Jesus comes from the Greek translation of the name Joshua. Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, in his book about the history of the Church, theorized that Jesus appeared twice, once in the persona of Joshua the son of Nun, which he regards as a pre-existence, then in the persona of Jesus the Christ, the son of Mary.”

While the is no source, outside the New Testament, to confirm the historical appearance of Jesus during Roman rule, according to Osman, there are many indications that the historical Jesus lived and died a long time prior to the Roman rule of Judea ...

... Osman claims that Jesus Christ was hung, not crucified, on the eve of Passover in 1352 BCE by the priest Panhesy, also known as Phineas. “There is a strange story in the Talmud, which includes a mass of Rabbinical Scriptures, about the death of Jesus Christ. It says that: ‘Pinhas…killed him [Jesus]’. Nobody could understand the real meaning of this statement. Pinhas, or Phinhas, was the priest of Moses in the wilderness of the Sinai. He is reported to have killed an important Israelite man, in the holy of holies of the Tabernacle, the temple tent built by Moses at the foot of Mount Sinai. Although another name is given in the Book of Numbers for the assassinated Israelite, it is obvious that Joshua was the real victim. According to the Bible, only three people could get to the holy of holies of the Tabernacle, Moses, the high priest, and Joshua the son of Nun ..."

When Emperor Constantine gave Bishop Makarios of Jerusalem permission to excavate the Tomb of Christ believed to be underneath the ancient Temple of Aphrodite in 325 AD, he discovered some wood fragments. Osman was confused, as am I, as to how Bishop Makarios determined that these wood fragments originated from the true cross of Christ.

Osman explains, “Alexandria in Egypt had been the centre of Christianity until that date, Rome needed to shift attention and power away from the Coptic sect by claiming such a discovery. After Bishop Makarios made his ‘discovery’ the Romans burned down the Temple of Serapis in Alexandria and destroyed the famous Library kept there as a way to destroy the 'wisdom of Egypt' and all those secrets stored there. The result was ten centuries of darkness until the renaissance was reestablished on once lost Alexandrian knowledge.”

Osman argues that Christianity has its roots in the Alexandrian Cult of Serapis. The doctrine of the cult of Serapis established an unprecedented belief that its followers could obtain the right to eternal life without the need for mummification ...

 

[Mcreal]

"ESSENES & GNOSTICS:"​

"The two early churches of Peter and Paul emerged from two ancient sects; the Essenes of Qumran, and the Gnostics of Egypt.

"Two major archaeological discoveries have been made following the end of World War II, which have completely changed our understanding of the early history of Christianity:

"In 1945 the Coptic library of Nag Hammadi was found in Upper Egypt, which included Christian gospels not known before.

"The most important of these is the Gospel of Thomas, including sayings of Jesus, which could be dated earlier than the four Gospels of the New Testament. This Library belonged to a Gnostic Christian sect, which is the same as the early Egyptian Gentile Church.

"Although most of the 53 texts of Nag Hammdi are Christian writings, none of them mentions Jesus as belonging to the city of Nazareth, born in Bethlehem, entering Jerusalem, or crucified on the orders of Pontius Pilate.​

"In 1947 a Hebrew library was found in Kherbet Qumran, east of the top end of the Dead Sea.

"It included copies of the Old Testament books as well as sectarian writings. These texts were written between the 2nd century BC. and the mid-1st century AD. This library belonged to the Jewish-Christian sect of the Essenes.

"Although the Essenes spoke of their Teacher of Righteousness who had been killed and whose return they were expecting, no mention of Jesus is found in their writings, as being a contemporary character living in the same land of Palestine. The Essenes do not talk of their Teacher as belonging to Nazareth, born in Bethlehem, entering Jerusalem, or being crucified on the orders of Pontius Pilate.​

"In his New Testament letters, St Paul agrees with the Essenes and Gnostics in not talking of Jesus as belonging to Nazareth, born in Bethlehem, entering Jerusalem, or crucified on the orders of Pontius Pilate."

http://freespace.virgin.net/a.osman/#ESSENES &

 

[Craig B]

The same applies to Christian apologists and Christian 'Biblical-scholars'.

I am not a Christian. Let them speak for themselves if they can. Many, but not all, Christian scholars are such dunderheads as to produce pseudo historical rubbish like this. Notice the reissue of the books under new names. Keep the pot boiling. And the association with Bauval. Charlatanry.

His first hypothesis was that Patriarch Joseph, of the coat of many colours, was in fact Yuya the minister of Amenhotep III of Egypt’s 18th Dynasty. This was the subject of his 1st book Stranger in the Valley of the Kings, now republished in another title The Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt.
His second work claimed that Moses of the Bible was the same person as the monotheistic king Akhenaten, whose maternal grandfather was Yuya/Joseph. This was the subject of his second book Moses Pharaoh of Egypt, now republished as Moses and Akhenaten.
His third work suggested that Jesus of the New Testament was the same person as Joshua the son of Nun and Tut-ankh-Amun. This Jesus was not only a contemporary of Moses, but also his son. This argument was presented in a book The House of the Messiah, now republished as Jesus in the House of the Pharaohs.
His fourth work claimed that Christianity came out of Egypt, not Palestine, and it was the Roman fathers who claimed that St Peter, rather than St Paul, was the apostle who spread Christianity to Gentiles. This was argued in a book called Out of Egypt, now republished under the title Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion.
His fifth book was co-authored by Robert Bauval, which exposes the many cycles of monument destruction and cultural suppression in Egypt, and gives details of vandalism of Egyptian antiquities and suppression of ancient knowledge. It is published under the title Breaking the Mirror of Heaven.
His sixth book claims that he was able to identify the location of the city where Moses led the Israelites in their Exodus, out of Egypt. After 25 years of Osman’s identification, archaeological findings confirmed his argument. It is titled The Lost City of the Exodus.

This drivel is from Bauval's website. Usual rubbish, along with inevitable paranoia warning moronic readers to have nothing to do with real scholarship. More charlatanry, selling books to fools.

My Website has been specially constructed to cater for the growing debates and discussions that are now part of the 'Alternative History' scene. I also want my Website to be a high quality product that will keep the debates and discussions involving my work and findings

Since the publication of THE ORION MYSTERY in February 1994 (see books page) much water has flowed under the bridge. In 1996 Graham Hancock and I then pursued the quest together with the publication of KEEPER OF GENESIS which took us deep into the haunting metaphysical questions of the origins of human intellect and in hot pursuit of what we have come to term 'the quest for the science of immortality'. In 1999 I wrote SECRET CHAMBER which explored the deeper layers of the Giza quest and made the linkage between the ancient 'magical knowledge' and the Hermetic Tradition that carried it across the ages and into the mainstream of our modern western intellectual and esoteric tradition. Several books have been, or are to be published: <snip list of books to be published>These books have been the subject of much press reviews and articles, and prompted major television documentaries which have generated heated debates at the highest of levels. They have flushed out academics from their ivory towers to confront the challenges that were put before them. At long last the debate was pulled upwards to warrant the attention of the international media and, more importantly, forced into the public arena, and the global scientific and academic network of the 'establishment'.

 

[Mcreal]

"HISTORICAL JESUS:"​

"Christ appeared, not once, but twice. Once in a historical form and the other in a spiritual form.

"The early Fathers who wrote the history of the Church stated that Jesus had appeared twice:

* First in the person of Joshua the son of Nun, who succeeded Moses as the leader of the Israelites, in the 14th century BC. This was regarded by them as Christ’s pre-existence.

* Second when the Glory of Christ appeared to his disciples, during the first half of the 1st century AD. This they regarded as Christ’s 'historical appearance.'​

"It is generally accepted that Jesus, the same as Joshua, was the Israelite leader who succeeded Moses.

"However, while the Church Fathers took the first appearance to be spiritual, and the second historical, Ahmed Osman argues that the first should be taken as the 'historical appearance' and the second as the spiritual.

"The name Jesus appeared for the first time in the Greek translation of the Old Testament made in Alexandria during the 3rd century BC. ‘Jesus’ then indicated the son of Nun, who succeeded Moses as the leader of the Israelites.

"Jesus is also the name given to Joshua the son of Nun in the works of Philo of Alexandria and Flavius Josephus, both Jewish authors of the 1st century AD.

"When the Christian Gospels, which were also written in Greek, spoke of Jesus, it was clear to the reader then that this was the same person as the Israelite leader who succeeded Moses.

"The confusion only appeared from the 16th century onwards, when the Bible was translated into English. Only then the name ‘Joshua’ was given to the Old Testament character, while ‘Jesus’ was used for his New Testament appearance."

http://freespace.virgin.net/a.osman/#HISTORICAL

 

[Belz...]

Jesus of Nazareth is just pure fiction.

Jesus of Nazareth never had any real existence.

We're well aware of your opinion, Dejudge.

 

[dejudge]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

Serapis PREDATES the Jesus stories.

The myth character called Serapis was worshiped as a God by Christians hundreds of years BEFORE and AFTER the Jesus story was fabricated.

Jews were called 'Christ' hundreds of year BEFORE and sometime AFTER the Jesus story was invented.

The God of the Jews was called Chrestos hundreds of years BEFORE and AFTER the Jesus stories.

The mention of Christ, Christian, Chrestos and Chrestianos do not help the HJ argument.

The words use of the words Christ, Christian, Chrestos and Chrestianos do not require the existence an historical Jesus.

 

[Craig B]

When the Christian Gospels, which were also written in Greek, spoke of Jesus, it was clear to the reader then that this was the same person as the Israelite leader who succeeded Moses.

I am entitled to ask you for a substantive justification of that, with links to the appropriate evidence.

 

[Mcreal]

I am entitled to ask you for a substantive justification of that, with links to the appropriate evidence.

The whole post, including that segement, is a quote from http://freespace.virgin.net/a.osman/#HISTORICAL. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Given the no scholarly consensus that the Jewish Exodus into and out of Egypt is unattested, so is highly unlikely, I think Osman's proposition that the OT stories, and hence the NT stories, originated in Egypt has quite a bit of merit.