The Historical Jesus III

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The passage has exposed that even the mention of Christus cannot be assumed to refer to Jesus.

Devotees of Serapis were calling themselves bishops of Christ.

The words Christ and Christian cannot be assumed to refer to Jesus or a Jesus cult or to a Jew.
 
Tacitus's Histories 4.81 recounts how Vespian had experiences as a healer through Serapis
81 1 During the months while Vespasian was waiting at Alexandria for the regular season of the summer winds and a settled sea, many marvels continued to mark the favour of heaven and a certain partiality of the gods toward him. One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his loss of sight, threw himself before Vespasian's knees, praying him with groans to cure his blindness, being so directed by the god Serapis, whom this most superstitious of nations worships before all others; and he besought the emperor to deign to moisten his cheeks and eyes with his spittle. Another, whose hand was useless, prompted by the same god, begged Caesar to step and trample on it. Vespasian at first ridiculed these appeals and treated them with scorn; then, when the men persisted, he began at one moment to fear the discredit of failure, at another to be inspired with hopes of success by the appeals of the suppliants and the flattery of his courtiers: finally, he directed the physicians to give their opinion as to whether such blindness and infirmity could be overcome by human aid. Their reply treated the two cases differently: they said that in the first the power of sight had not been completely eaten away and it would return if the obstacles were removed; in the other, the joints had slipped and become displaced, but they could be restored if a healing pressure were applied to them. Such perhaps was the wish of the gods, and it might be that the emperor had been chosen for this divine service; in any case, if a cure were obtained, the glory would be Caesar's, but in the event of failure, ridicule would fall only on the poor suppliants. So Vespasian, believing that his good fortune was capable of anything and that nothing was any longer incredible, with a smiling countenance, and amid intense excitement on the part of the bystanders, did as he was asked to do. The hand was instantly restored to use, and the day again shone for the blind man. Both facts are told by eye-witnesses even now when falsehood brings no reward.

82 1 These events gave Vespasian a deeper desire to visit the sanctuary of the god to consult him with regard to his imperial fortune: he ordered all to be excluded from the temple. Then after he had entered the temple and was absorbed in contemplation of the god, he saw behind him one of the leading men of Egypt, named Basilides,5 who he knew was detained by sickness in a place many days' journey distant from Alexandria. He asked the priests whether Basilides had entered the temple on that day; he questioned the passers-by whether he had been seen in the city; finally, he sent some cavalry and found that at that moment he had been eighty miles away: then he concluded that this was a supernatural vision and drew a prophecy from the name Basilides.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Tacitus/Histories/4D*.html

That account - about Vespasian healing the blind man with spittle, on account of Serapis - has parallels with Mark 8:13.

Healing a man with a withered hand is also one of the miracles of Jesus in the Gospels,

namely in Mark 3:1-6, Luke 6:6-11, and Matthew 12:9-13.​

Do these Vespasian & Serapis accounts contribute to the Gospel stories?

and
Is that Basilides this one? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilides

eta
Suetonius Life of Vespasian, 8.
Vespasian, still rather bewildered in his new role as emperor, felt a certain lack of authority and of what might be called the divine spark; yet both these attributes were granted him. As he sat on the Tribunal, two labourers, one blind, the other lame, approached together, begging to be healed. Apparently the god Serapis had promised them that if Vespasian would consent to spit in the blind man’s eyes, and touch the lame man’s leg with his heel, both would be made well. Vespasian had so little faith in his curative powers that he showed great reluctance in doing as he was asked; but his friends persuaded him to try them, in the presence of a large audience, too - and the charm worked.
 
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Further to my last. Here's the Latin, for which I thank you. You are saying that "qui Serapem colunt Christiani sunt, et devoti sunt Serapi qui se Christi episcopos dicunt." Has nothing to do with the words that immediately follow: "nemo illic archisynagogus Iudaeorum, nemo Samarites, nemo Christianorum presbyter non mathematicus, non haruspex, non aliptes. ipse ille patriarcha cum Aegyptum venerit, ab aliis Serapidem adorare, ab aliis cogitur Christum."

Can anyone with less rudimentary Latin than mine comment on that?
 
Tacitus's Histories 4.81 recounts how Vespian had experiences as a healer through Serapis


That account - about Vespasian healing the blind man with spittle, on account of Serapis - has parallels with Mark 8:13.

Healing a man with a withered hand is also one of the miracles of Jesus in the Gospels, namely in Mark 3:1-6, Luke 6:6-11, and Matthew 12:9-13.

Do these Vespasian & Serapis accounts contribute to the Gospel stories?

and
Is that Basilides this one? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilides
Does not Josephus relate this incident, and use it to justify his belief, or prudent statement, that Vespasian was the awaited Messiah? Is the identification of Vespasian as Messiah a Christian belief?

ETA I'm not sure that particular miracle is in Josephus, but others are.
As an unknown person of lowly birth, (his father was a customs supervisor), Vespasian needed some recognition of the validity of his accession and the rule of his new dynasty. A series of miracles were noted which seemed to presage his rule. We have three ancient and contemporary sources for these miracles: Josephus, 37-100, Tacitus, 55-120 and Suetonius, 69-140. All three were in the employ of the Flavian emperors, and for a period, at the same time. Both Josephus and Tacitus admit their debt first to Vespasian, then Titus, and finally to Domitian for their careers.
http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/FlavSyn.htm
 
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Further to my last. Here's the Latin, for which I thank you. You are saying that "qui Serapem colunt Christiani sunt, et devoti sunt Serapi qui se Christi episcopos dicunt" Has nothing to do with the words that immediately follow: "nemo illic archisynagogus Iudaeorum, nemo Samarites, nemo Christianorum presbyter non mathematicus, non haruspex, non aliptes. ipse ille patriarcha cum Aegyptum venerit, ab aliis Serapidem adorare, ab aliis cogitur Christum."
I'm not saying it has nothing to do with it; I am saying it has little to do with it.

Frankly, your commentary is often loaded or misrepresents

eg. "imperatively demands the reading I [CraigB] suggest", "being full of plain howlers", "Vanishingly improbable"
 
Does not Josephus relate this incident, and use it to justify his belief, or prudent statement, that Vespasian was the awaited Messiah? Is the identification of Vespasian as Messiah a Christian belief?

ETA I'm not sure that one's in Josephus, but others are. http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/FlavSyn.htm
I'm not sure if that Tacitus Histories account is related to Josephus's views.

I posted it as an account of another emperor in Egypt with interactions with Serapis that mimic Biblical accounts
 
I'm not saying it has nothing to do with it; I am saying it has little to do with it.

Frankly, your commentary is often loaded or misrepresents

eg. "imperatively demands the reading I [CraigB] suggest", "being full of plain howlers", "Vanishingly improbable"
I stand by the last two of these. "flame" and "commanded" for "fame" and "commended" are simple spelling mistakes. The Latin has "fama" which gives us the "flame". And I think it is clear, really clear, that the passage about the heads of synagogues, Samaritans etc is a continuation or expansion of the bit about the Christian bishops. It follows on quite naturally.

The strength of my confidence in the reading is of course my personal impression, and you are free to adopt and justify your own views on this, in any way you think best.
 

Cheers. That's interesting. Compared to Tacitus Histories 4. 82, we have

‘Basilides’ = ‘King’s Son’ or Prince​

and Suetonius Life of Vespasian, 7.
So Vespasian began a new civil war; having sent troops ahead to Italy, he crossed into Africa and occupied Alexandria, the key to Egypt. There he dismissed his servants and entered the Temple of Serapis, alone, to consult the auspices and discover how long he would last as emperor. After many propitiatory sacrifices he turned to go, but was granted a vision of his freedman Basilides handing him the customary branches, garlands and bread - although Basilides had for a long time been nearly crippled by rheumatism and was moreover far away.
then
Temple of Serapis​

While in Egypt, consolidating his rule, Vespasian had a few recorded adventures. Although J was supposed to be with him in Alexandria he mentions none of these. Perhaps it is J’s reticence about giving credit to any other oracle but his own? Both T and S give a report on Vespasian’s doings in Egypt. The visit to the temple of Serapis is the most important incident.

Both T and S record the oracle at the temple of Serapis; although somewhat differently. This episode gives us a very good insight into the workings of the Flavian propaganda machine. The account of the oracle given by both is taken from the life of Alexander the Great. Alexander, before setting out on his great campaign to the East, consulted the Egyptian oracle of Ammon at Siwa. There he was greeted by the priest as the ‘Ammon’s Son’, which Alexander took to mean that he was a son of the god and therefore a god himself.

Not having the time or inclination for the hazardous journey to Siwa, Vespasian was satisfied with the temple of Serapis and with being called ‘Basilides’ = ‘King’s Son’ or Prince. After all he was aspiring to the Principate rather than to the ill-omened Roman kingship. The Romans detested kings, so their supreme ruler was the principal man amongst men. Julius Caesar was assassinated because the Romans merely suspected that he wished to be declared King!

Although both T and S were writing about the same event, and for the same purpose, their stories differ in details. Like Alexander, Vespasian enters the temple alone, they both agree upon that. But, they do not agree on who or what Basilides was. In T’s account he was a ‘leading Egyptian’, while S has him as Vespasian’s freedman? The Basilides in T is merely described as ‘ill’, whereas in S he is specifically diagnosed as having rheumatism. T says that Basilides was ‘eighty miles away’, and S that he was ‘far away’. How is it that T is exact on the distance where S is vague: and as to Basilides’ illness it is the reverse: S is exact and T is vague(?) Remember that T also names the priest at Carmel ‘Basilides’. Is it the same man, or just a fortuitous coincidence?

It seems, since neither were eye-witnesses to the Egyptian events, (S was born in the year this was supposed to have taken place, 69,) that they must have been following a common source. If so, why are their stories so different? The details in S missing from T centre around political and military events. The battle at Cremona and Vitellus’ death are mentioned, as they were the vital turning point in the struggle for the rule of Rome.

But, S does not tell us that Vespasian must, at the same time, have heard of the death of his own brother, Sabinus, in the final victorious fighting. He would have also heard that his other son, Domitian, had survived the battle in which Sabinus had died. All fortune is mixed, the good with the bad, and vice versa.

http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/FlavSyn.htm
I think "Vespasian was satisfied with the temple of Serapis and with being called ‘Basilides’ [= ‘King’s Son’ or Prince]" is interesting.

as is "they do not agree on who or what Basilides was. In T’s account he was a ‘leading Egyptian’, while S has him as Vespasian’s freedman?"
 
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I stand by the last two of these. "flame" and "commanded" for "fame" and "commended" are simple spelling mistakes. The Latin has "fama" which gives us the "flame".
Yes there are likey lots of mistakes, which is why I think your "strength of ... confidence in the reading" is misplaced.

And I think it is clear, really clear, that the passage about the heads of synagogues, Samaritans etc is a continuation or expansion of the bit about the Christian bishops.
I don't. I think the bit about Christians and Christian bishops worshiping Serapis is more specific, and 'the passage about the heads of synagogues, Samaritans etc' is more general.
 
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. "Jesus was a spaceman" is a non-supernatural Jesus; but he is most certainly not a historical Jesus, as there is no evidence whatever for such a bizarre hypothesis.

Sure there is: The Gospels. If you take the miracles of in them as real historical events but discount the idea Jesus was supernatural what do you have left? Basically Clarke's Law (advanced enough technology is indistinguishable from magic).

Sure it read like somebody that read EC's "He Walked Among Us", Weird Science #13 and Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods one too many times but the idea that Jesus was an alien rather then a supernatual being was kicked out on the fringes in the late 19th century.
 
A source reference would be nice. The Hadrian letter seems to state that "The patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is compelled by one party to worship Serapis, by the other, Christ." which means that these are two separate beings, since one party supports Serapis, and another party supports Christ.

A little Google search (remember Google is your FRIEND :p ) shows that "Serapis Christus" appeared in a German work of the 19th century:

"Die W.'sche Theorie erscheint fast als eine Art Konsequenz der Grane val- schen freidenkerischen Schrift über Serapis-Christus 1874. S. m. kl. Gesch. Jesu 2. A. 1875, 375. VITT." - Theodor Keim (1878) Aus dem Urchristenthum

The other results appear to be false positives like Serapis, Christus

I also got "Mit dem Glauben an die Geschichtlichkeit dieses Christus bricht auch das Christentum zusammen. Der Radikalismus in Frankreich Die Gleichsetzung von Christus mit Chrestus-Serapis, der Milesbo zugeneigt ist, stammt von dem Franzosen" - Arthur Drews (1926) Die Leugnung der Geschichtlichkeit Jesu in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart. Karlsruhe

According Google translator the passage reads 'With faith in the historicity of this Christ breaks and Christianity together . Radicalism in France Equating Christ with Chrestus-Serapis which Milesbo is inclined , is derived from the French...'


"Chrestus was not only a familiar personal name, it was also a name of the Egyptian Serapis, or Osiris" C. Dennis McKinsey (2000) Biblical Errancy: A Reference Guide Page 309

Also we need to remember that Chrestos had been used as an adjective and even a title going back to the 5th century BCE and appears on tombs before, during, and after the supposed time of "Christ" (Mitchell, James Barr (1880) Chrestos: a religious epithet; its import and influence; Pleket, H.W.; Stroud, R.S.. "Egypt. Funerary epithets in Egypt.(26-1702)." Supplementum Epigraphicum Graecum. Current editors: A. T. R.S. R.A. Chaniotis Corsten Stroud Tybout. Brill Online, 2013.)

As I mentioned before "Chrestus" has related derivatives that far better fit Jesus then "Christ" does especially to a non Jewish audience:

* chraomai: consulting an oracle
* chresterion: "the seat of an oracle" and "an offering to, or for, the oracle."
* Chrestes: one who expounds or explains oracles, "a prophet, a soothsayer"
* chresterios: one who belongs to, or is in the service of, an oracle, a god, or a "Master"
* theochrestos: "God-declared," or one who is declared by god(The sources of CHRESTOS and CHRISTOS in Antiquity)

More over there are works that seem to talk about a Jesus Chrestos (Jesus the Good) rather then Jesus Christ (Jesus the Messiah): a record of baptism in a Cemetery of Callisto's sepulchral inscription (268 CE), the Deir Ali Inscription (318 CE) PGM IV. 3007-86 (c 4th century), and The Manichaean Manuscripts (4th century). Lactantius (c. 250 – c. 325) tried to explain this in Divine Institutes, Book IV Ch. VII but the explanation doesn't acknowledge the variants of the term "Chrestus" (The sources of "Chrestian" [χρηστιανος]and "Christian" [χριστιανος] in Antiquity)
 
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Sure there is: The Gospels. If you take the miracles of in them as real historical events but discount the idea Jesus was supernatural what do you have left? Basically Clarke's Law (advanced enough technology is indistinguishable from magic).

Sure it read like somebody that read EC's "He Walked Among Us", Weird Science #13 and Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods one too many times but the idea that Jesus was an alien rather then a supernatual being was kicked out on the fringes in the late 19th century.
This is all utter nonsense. No rational analysis of the gospels makes atheists believe Jesus was a spaceman. Is this dome kind of Carrier stuff?
 
Yes there are likey lots of mistakes, which is why I think your "strength of ... confidence in the reading" is misplaced.
I have no confidence whatsoever in the "flame" version you originally cited, and I have explained at length why I have none.
I don't. I think the bit about Christians and Christian bishops worshiping Serapis is more specific, and 'the passage about the heads of synagogues, Samaritans etc' is more general.
I can't accept that, and I have stated why I can't. The letter at that point is discussing inconstancy of religious practice, and there would be no such inconstancy if Christ and Serapis were the same thing.
 
The letter at that point is discussing inconstancy of religious practice, and there would be no such inconstancy if Christ and Serapis were the same thing.
It's a letter about poorly-defined religious practices in antiquity. It sates one practice - the woship of Serapis - in one sentence then, separately, refers to either (i) other practices, or (ii) no roles of others in the worship of Serapis, or (iii) roles of astrologers, 'soothsayers', or 'anointers' viz. -

"There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue; no Samaritan; no Christian presbyter; who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer."​
I think you're muddying the waters unnecessarily.
 
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It's a letter about poorly-defined religious practices in antiquity. It sates one practice - the woship of Serapis - in one sentence then, separately, refers to either (i) other practices, or (ii) no roles of others in the worship of Serapis, or (iii) roles of astrologers, 'soothsayers', or 'anointers' viz. -

"There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue; no Samaritan; no Christian presbyter; who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer."​
I think you're muddying the waters unnecessarily.
The point of that is surely that fortune telling, astrology etc are offences against Jewish, Samaritan and Christian religious laws.
"You shall not practice divination or soothsaying." (Leviticus 19:26)

"When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to imitate the abhorrent practices of the nations. Let no one be found among you who...is an auger, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorceror, one casts spells.....For anyone who does these things is abhorrent to the LORD..." (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
They are inconsistent with these religions, as worship of Serapis is inconsistent with worship of Christ; just as in fact the passage goes on to say, in relation to the Patriarch.
 
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....The Temple was razed, certainly. But what is the evidence that the Temple system stopped operating in 70 CE? It seems to me if there were still Jews in Jerusalem (which there were up until after the Bar Kochba revolt in the 130s CE) the Jews would have continued on with the annual sacrificing even in the absence of the old Temple. Why wouldn't they?
Why wouldn't they?

Why would they??

Your question is worthless as evidence.

Again, as a Christian you continue to spread propaganda.

You have no evidence that Jews were still carrying out annual sacrifice.

In order to carry out sacrifices they would need an high priest.

Please identify the high priests from c 70-130 CE?

It is most fascinating that you as a Christian today are still engaged in spreading rumors .

GDon said:
If you have links to show a definite stop to annual sacrifices at Jerusalem at around 70 CE, I'd be very interested in reading it.

If you have a non-apologetic source to show that annual sacrifices were still carried out we would be very interested in reading it.
 
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dejudge, for once you make a good point about the continuance of sacrifice after 70 CE. But why do you include these sorts of expressions?
Again, as a Christian you continue to spread propaganda.

It is most fascinating that you as a Christian today are still engaged in spreading rumors.
At least you left "Chinese whispers" out this time.
 
The point of that is surely that fortune telling, astrology etc are offences against Jewish, Samaritan and Christian religious laws. They are inconsistent with these religions, as worship of Serapis is inconsistent with worship of Christ; just as in fact the passage goes on to say, in relation to the Patriarch.
I don't know what your point is: it is either saying (i) these are not part of the cult of Serapis, which makes your point moot; or (ii) it's a stand-alone sentence; or, it's saying (iii) so-called Jewish chiefs, Samaritans, or 'Christian-presbyters' are involved in dodgy practices.

Who would know?? It's antiquity!!

Who knows what Patriarch the passage might refer to??!
 
CraigB, you do realise Hadrian had a Serapeum at home in Rome?

1. Protected by a monumental dome, the sanctuary was composed of a public area and a more intimate subterranean part that was dedicated to the chthonic aspect of Serapis.

To mark the inauguration of his temple, Hadrian struck coinage that carry his effigy accompanied by Serapis, upon a dais where two columns support a round canopy. In this manner, the emperor became synnaos, a companion of the god's arcane naos and equal beneficiary of the cult of Serapis at Canopus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapeum#Hadrian.27s_Villa

2. Taylor, R. (2004). Hadrian's Serapeum in Rome. American Journal of Archaeology, 108(2), 223-266.

3. See The Serapeum And The Canopus Of Hadrian's Villa especially the bottom of that web-page.
 
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