The Historical Jesus III

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What chicanery!!!

Have you heard of the Septuagint?

The Greek Septuagint is the OLDEST Buybull in existence... written in the 3rd century BCE... and now you are saying it is a Christian version?
Chicanery? You know I'm saying nothing of the sort. It is dejudge who is citing a Christian transcription of LXX, as you can see.
The earliest Greek Bible, the Codex Sinaiticus, shows that the very same NOMINA SACRA in Galatians 1.19 is used hundreds of times for the LORD GOD of the Jews in books of the Greek OT.
The CS is the earliest Greek Bible, is it? Take that up with dejudge. I think he's using his usual "date of earliest extant manuscript = date of composition" principle. Like me, you disagree, so raise the matter with him.

We were discussing Nomina Sacra, and these are specifically Christian additions to the text of LXX. Here's wiki, describing the penning of LXX in the CS.
Occasional points and few ligatures are used, though nomina sacra with overlines are employed throughout.
If you think the pre-Christian transcriptions of LXX contained these nomina sacra, there's nothing I can do about that, I'm afraid.

So, take this nonsense up with dejudge. As I posted to him: "No more of this rubbish, dejudge. Discuss this balderdash with your supporters, of whom I see you have a few in this thread." On you go then.

I have now read your post to Mcreal, which gives a disquieting insight into your ideas about the nature of controversy.
 
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Galatians 1.19 never had anything to do with an historical Jesus.

Like a CHAMELEON, those who had NO evidence of an historical Jesus put out the propaganda that the NOMINA SACRA [κυ] is their HJ.

What a blatant FARCE!!!!

For hundreds of years BEFORE the myth/fiction character called Jesus was fabricated the LORD was a DIRECT reference to the LORD GOD of Jews.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of references to THE LORD GOD of Jews using ONLY the word LORD.

[κυ] simply means or signifies "of the LORD GOD", or "by the LORD GOD".

Now examine the earliest Greek Bible with a New Testament.

The Nomina Sacra [κυ] refers DIRECTLY to the LORD GOD of the Jews.

1. Matthew 1. 20--- But while he thought of these things, behold, an angel of the Lord [κυ] appeared to him in a dream.

2. Matthew 1.22--- And all this was done, that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the Lord [κυ] through the prophet

3. Matthew 1.24 ---And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord [κυ] had commanded him

4. Matthew 2.13--- But after they had withdrawn, behold, an angel of the Lord [κυ] appeared to Joseph in a dream.

5. Matthew 2.15 ---and was there till the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the Lord [κυ] through the prophet

6. Matthew 2.19--- But after Herod had died, behold, an angel of the Lord[κυ] appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt

7. Luke 1.6---6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord [κυ] blameless.

8. Luke 1.9 ---according to the custom of the priesthood his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord [κυ]

9. Luke 1.11--- And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord [κυ]

10. Luke 2.39---39 And when they had accomplished all things according to the law of the Lord [κυ], they returned to Galilee...

The very same NOMINA SACRA [κυ] in Galatians 1.19 is found in MULTIPLE NT books of the New Testament in DIRECT reference to the Lord God of the Jews.

The propaganda and Chinese whispers have been exposed.

Galatians 1.19 makes NO mention of an historical Jesus.

Galatians 1.19 makes reference to the LORD GOD of the Jews.
 
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If you're suggesting that Lord cannot refer to the guy they saw as their messiah, but only to YHWH, are you suggesting these people believed that the almighty and supernatural creator of the world had a fully human brother named Jimmy, who lived in Jerusalem? Sounds like the plot to an Adam Sandler movie.
 
dejudge, I may have asked this before, but if so, I have forgotten your response. Why do you keep referring to "propaganda and Chinese whispers"?
 
The HJ argument is a FARCE--propaganda and chinese whispers.

The Nomina Sacra [κυ] is a DIRECT reference to the Lord God of the Jews.

But, there is more chicanery--more propaganda and chinese whispers

The Greek word for GOOD [χρηϲτοϲ] [chrestos] is also a reference to the Lord God of the Jews.

Examine Psalms [Hymns to the Lord God of the Jews] in the Codex Sinaiticus


Psalms 105.1----τω κω οτι χρηϲτοϲ [The Lord God of the Jews is CHRESTOS]

Psalms 106.1---τω κω οτι χρηϲτοϲ [the LORD GOD of the Jews is CHRESTOS]

Psalms 144.9--- χρηϲτοϲ κϲ [CHRESTOS the LORD GOD of the Jews.]

The HJ argument is a FARCE.

CHRESTOS is a direct reference to the Lord God of the Jews and CHRESTIANOS were those who were believers in the Lord God of the Jews.

Psalms 116.1 O give thanks unto the LORD GOD of the Jews for he is CHRESTOS.

Jesus of Nazareth is a fiction character based on the myth fables of CHRESTOS [the Lord God of the Jews].

The history of the Jesus cult is bogus since it was FALSELY claimed that followers of the Lord God of the Jews [CHRESTOS] were followers of a fiction character called Jesus of Nazareth before the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.
 
dejudge I see. Your discourteous response is to add "chicanery" to "Chinese whispers" and "propaganda". That is because you saw me questioning its use by Leumas, and you decided to say something you believe to be provocative. Well, from now on you and Leumas can exchange ideas between yourselves. I hope you will succeed in correcting each other's many erroneous notions.
 
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Yes, Vinzent M (2014) 'Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels' (Leuven: Peeters) is described as "the first systematic study of all available early evidence that we have about the first witness to our Gospel narratives, Marcion of Sinope"

Note I said "...we have evidence of [one] sect having a "definitive canon" in the late 2nd."

I am of course referring to Against Heresies at c 180 CE. As I note we don't really see anything even like quotes from our Gospels until the 130s at best and these are iffy at that.

The Formation of the New Testament Canon by Richard Carrier is an interesting cliff notes look at how the Canon we use came about. The full matter is in Bruce Metzger's The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development,and Significance (Oxford: Clarendon, 1987)
 
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Note I said ...we have evidence of [one] sect having a "definitive canon" in the late 2nd."

I am of course referring to Against Heresies at c 180 CE. As I note we don't really see anything even like quotes from our Gospels until the 130s at best and these are iffy at that.

The Formation of the New Testament Canon by Richard Carrier is an interesting cliff notes look at how the Canon we use came about.


I have always wondered about this.

The quotes are not really quotes... they do not say "from the gospel xxx" or anything like that.

They are at best a phrase that RESEMBLES something in the gospels which then "scholars" construe as a quote in the most tortured sense.

But has anyone questioned that this phrase could have been something floating around and the gospel writers borrowed it as they did almost everything else?

Couldn't the supposed resembling phrase have been borrowed from the grape vine so to speak by both the person supposedly quoting it as well as the gospel writer?

Why hasn't this been considered as a possibility? What makes them so sure that it is a quote despite the very tenuous correspondence of the words and despite no actual mention that it is a quote let alone from where?

And what amuses me is that "scholars" then go on to use this unproven and unquestioned hypothesis to argue for dating and other castles built upon a shaky foundation of hypothetical quicksand.

Of course Ehrman then calls this grape vine the gospel of Q and despite being a complete and utter hypothetical wishful thinking by "scholars" he still cites it as an independent source and treats it as if it really did exist as a gospel albeit lost without a trace of its existence EVER.

My favorite claptrap in Ehrman's book is saying that stuff in for example gLuke that is not found in common with any of the other synoptic gospels must have been borrowed from an earlier L-gospel... not even once stopping to consider that it may have been just "Luke's" own fabrication... noooo it was borrowed from another hypothetical source that he then treats as yet one more independent source and repeats this process of fabricating "independent" sources over and over again and then says.... Jesus has more attestations for him than most historical figures do.... mind boggling I say... mind boggling!!
 
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If you're suggesting that Lord cannot refer to the guy they saw as their messiah, but only to YHWH, are you suggesting these people believed that the almighty and supernatural creator of the world had a fully human brother named Jimmy, who lived in Jerusalem? Sounds like the plot to an Adam Sandler movie.


The answers to your questions are made clear in these books... please read at least the first on the list if you can with an unprejudiced mindset and you will be able to figure it out.

If book reading is not something you like then, instead of watching rubbish on TV, do yourself a favor and watch these videos if you can with an objective unvitiated mindset.
 
Note I said "...we have evidence of [one] sect having a "definitive canon" in the late 2nd."

I am of course referring to Against Heresies at c 180 CE. As I note we don't really see anything even like quotes from our Gospels until the 130s at best and these are iffy at that.

"Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus is not really evidence of "one sect having a "definitive canon".

"Against Heresies" mentioned MULTIPLE sects with MULTIPLE versions of myth fables about Jesus and other myth God characters.

There is no actual manuscript of "Against Heresies" dated to the 2nd century.

In addition, the claims in "Against Heresies" of the authorship, contents and chronology of NT writings have been rejected by virtually all Scholars for or against an HJ.

Amazingly, Irenaeus was supposedly a presbyter and bishop of the Church of Lyons and ARGUED that Jesus was crucified c 50 CE or 20 years AFTER the 15th year of Tiberius.

Essentially "Against Heresies" is historical garbage [forgeries and fiction] and must be the product of multiple authors posing as Irenaeus.

It is virtually impossible that the same author who appears to have knowledge of the NT Canon could have argued that Jesus was crucified when he was an old man in the time of Claudius.

"Against Heresies" is evidence that there was NO definitive NT Canon by showing the vast amount of myth fables by multiple Heretical cults.
 
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Note I said "...we have evidence of [one] sect having a "definitive canon" in the late 2nd."

I am of course referring to Against Heresies at c 180 CE. As I note we don't really see anything even like quotes from our Gospels until the 130s at best and these are iffy at that.
Yes, Ireneaus is supposed to have been the first person to have accumulated the four gospels, though I find it hard to believe that someone who originated in Smyrna, Asia Minor, as a pupil of Polycarp of Smyrna, could be so engaged in developing Christianity while so far west in Gaul (now Lyon, France) where he was for a few decades.

The Formation of the New Testament Canon by Richard Carrier is an interesting cliff notes look at how the Canon we use came about. The full matter is in Bruce Metzger's The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development,and Significance (Oxford: Clarendon, 1987)
Cheers.
 
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Yes, Ireneaus is supposed to have been the first person to have accumulated the four gospels, though I find it hard to believe that someone who originated in Smyrna, Asia Minor, as a pupil of Polycarp of Smyrna, could be so engaged in developing Christianity while so far west in Gaul (now Lyon, France) where he was for a few decades.

The claims about the four Gospels in "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus has been discredited by virtually all Scholars for or against the HJ argument.

The four Gospels are forgeries or false attribution.

In addition, the claim in "Against Heresies" that a single writer under the name of Paul wrote all the Epistles is universally rejected by virtually all Scholars.

What is most fascinating is that all Christian writers of antiquity used the same bogus information found in "Against Heresies".
 
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"Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus is probably the very worst writing to argue for the historicity of Jesus and the history of the Jesus cult of Christians.

In "Against Heresies"2.22 it is claimed or implied that Jesus was crucified when he was an OLD man about 20 years AFTER the 15th year of Tiberius or circa 50 CE in the time of Claudius.

Such a claim destroys the ENTIRE chronology of the NT stories of Jesus and Paul.

If Jesus was crucified c 50 CE then the character called Paul could NOT have preached Christ Crucified since the time of King Aretas c 37-41 CE.

It must NOT be forgotten that it is claimed Irenaeus was a presbyter and Bishop of the CHURCH of Lyons so he must have been preaching and teaching in LYONS that Jesus, BORN of a Ghost, was an OLD man when was crucified c 50 CE.

"Against Heresies" is extremely good evidence that Jesus had NO established historical data and the Jesus cults INVENTED their OWN Jesus.

At the CHURCH of LYONS it was taught in the GOSPELS that Jesus, the son of the Ghost, was crucified c 50 CE when he was an OLD man.

"Against Heresies" 2/22
...Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information.

And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement. Whom then should we rather believe? Whether such men as these, or Ptolemaeus, who never saw the apostles, and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle?

It is evident that the Jesus story is NOT a product of history but imaginative fiction based on the TEACHINGS of the Church of LYONS in "Against Heresies".
 
I have always wondered about this.

The quotes are not really quotes... they do not say "from the gospel xxx" or anything like that.

Actually many of them do:

First of all, after He had made the water wine at Cana of Galilee, He went up to the festival day of the passover, on which occasion it is written, "For many believed in Him, when they saw the signs which He did", as John the disciple of the Lord records. - Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 22)


Given the way things are translated the hilighted passage fits John 2:23 very well.

Just a little further

For when He came to be baptized, He had not yet completed His thirtieth year, but was beginning to be about thirty years of age (for thus Luke, who has mentioned His years, has expressed it: Now Jesus was, as it were, beginning to be thirty years old, when He came to receive baptism);...
A good summation of Luke 3:21-23

Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 11) talks about the four Gospels we have:

For the Ebionites, who use Matthew's Gospel only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord. But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he still retains. Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified. Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book.



They are at best a phrase that RESEMBLES something in the gospels which then "scholars" construe as a quote in the most tortured sense.

Actually this may be is a translation and coping issue. We know that even the canonal four had their variants.


But has anyone questioned that this phrase could have been something floating around and the gospel writers borrowed it as they did almost everything else?

Again we KNOW there were more then four Gospels even in the late 2nd century as not only does Irenaeus wrote about them but Egerton Papyrus 2 range mid point (175 CE) is the correct time for when Against Heresies was supposedly composed.

If Irenaeus was paraphrasing stuff that was already bouncing around then why not just saying it was corrupted and the four Gospels he was on about actually said something else? It seems more likely per Occam's Razor that Irenaeus was using already existing works that he paraquoted from then him dreaming up passages that were later incorporated into the Gospels we know.

Also Irenaeus claim in Demonstrations ("For Herod the king of the Jews and Pontius Pilate, the governor of Claudius Caesar, came together and condemned Him to be crucified") shows that he HAD to be working off of existing documents. If Luke didn't exist at that time then Irenaeus would not have been locked into putting Jesus' crucifixion in the time of Claudius Caesar by his Jesus having the age of a Teacher (46+ years old) position as he was and then shoe horning Pontius Pilate into that time period as he did.

A 34 year old Jesus in 28 CE would be 50 years old in 44 CE which is the last year Herod "King of the Jews" (i.e. Herod Agrippa I) ruled.

The fact in places like Book II, Chapter 22 where he nearly bends over backwards to get things to fit his own views shows the group he was part of has their own "set" canon and that likely means written works.
 
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What claims about them?

Read Book III, Chapter 11 and find out some of them :D

Seriously though other then actually naming the four Gospels and stating who was using them that chapter is some of the most illogical mythical clap trap I have read in a long time. As I said a long time before the passage is mythical garbage.

Irenaeus could have just as easily argued there could be no more or no less then

1) Five Gospels as there are only five perfect solids;

2) Six Gospels as that is the number of main winds under Homer (Boreas (N), Notos (S), Zephyrus (NW), Eurus (NE), Apeliotes (SE), and Argestes (SW)) and double the number of the holy trinity

3) Seven Gospels as that is the perfect number of God (Seven days of Creation, Seven Seals of Revelation, etc)

4) Twelve Gospels as that is the original number of apostles and is the sum of the perfect numbers of Solids and God. This is also (read a certain way) the number of winds argued by Aristotle in his Meteorology (c.340 BCE)

The point is since the whole argument is based on metaphysical double talk you could throw nearly any number out and argue for it.
 
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