The Historical Jesus III

[dejudge]

The earliest Greek manuscripts Papyri 46 mentions an Apostle James the brother of the LORD GOD.

Of God? That is interesting. Can you cite the wording, including the word God, for I did not know that.

James the brother of JESUS???
JESUS?? Can you cite the wording including the word JESUS for I did not know that??

It is most amusing that you pretend that you do not know what Galatians 1 of Papyri 46 states.

http://earlybible.com/manuscripts/p46-Gal-2.html

The NOMINA SACRA for the LORD GOD of the Jews is "ΚΥ" which is precisely what is found in Galatians of Papyri 46.

The passage with James in Papyri 46 does NOT state anywhere at all that the Apostle James was the brother of Jesus.

Craig B PLEASE help us stop the propaganda and Chinese whispers.

No Greek version of Galatians 1.19 states James the Apostle was the brother of Jesus.

In addition, Jesus cult writers admitted THEIR Jesus had NO human brother called James the Apostle.

The HJ argument is a product of propaganda, Chinese whispers, fiction, speculation, forgeries or false attribution--the very worse kind of argument.

 

[Craig B]

dejudge, you said that the earliest Greek manuscripts Papyri 46 mentions an Apostle James the brother of the LORD GOD, which means, if true, that the expression God must be found in P46 at that point. I didn't know that, so I asked you to cite the text.

But obviously you must have received a different message, because you wrote this:

James the brother of JESUS???
JESUS?? Can you cite the wording including the word JESUS for I did not know that?? ...

Tell me where I have ever claimed that James is called by the words "brother of Jesus" in that text, dejudge.

And tell me also where James is called the "brother of God".

 

[dejudge]

dejudge, you said that the earliest Greek manuscripts Papyri 46 mentions an Apostle James the brother of the LORD GOD, which means, if true, that the expression God must be found in P46 at that point. I didn't know that, so I asked you to cite the text.

Your lack of knowledge is of no value.

You should first find out the NOMINA SACRA for the LORD GOD of the Jews in the Greek Bible.

But obviously you must have received a different message, because you wrote this: Tell me where I have ever claimed that James is called by the words "brother of Jesus" in that text, dejudge.

Amazingly, the same Craig B who constantly argues that Galatians 1.19 is reference to an historical JESUS can't remember where he ever claimed James is the brother of his assumed Jesus.

And tell me also where James is called the "brother of God".

I just showed you an image of Galatians of Papyri 46 and that it contains the NOMINA SACRA for the LORD GOD of the Jews.

http://earlybible.com/manuscripts/p46-Gal-2.html

Papyri 46 uses the NOMINA SACRA found hundreds of times in GREEK versions of the Bible.

The NOMINA SACRA for the LORD GOD of the Jews is 'ΚΥ' which is found in Papyri 46.

No Greek manuscript of Galatians STATE James the Apostle was the brother of an historical Jesus.

 

[Craig B]

Amazingly, the same Craig B who constantly argues that Galatians 1.19 is reference to an historical JESUS can't remember where he ever claimed James is the brother of his assumed Jesus.

Good try, dejudge. But it won't work. What I said was

Tell me where I have ever claimed that James is called by the words "brother of Jesus" in that text, dejudge.

 

[maximara]

Good try, dejudge. But it won't work. What I said was

Quote:
Tell me where I have ever claimed that James is called by the words "brother of Jesus" in that text, dejudge.

Forgot about the The Historical Jesus II section of the thread have we?

Craig B:Yes. More than that: In Galatians 1:19, Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James. Whether he WAS an Apostle or not, "the Bible" says that Jesus had a brother James. By introducing the word Apostle you are INTRODUCING an unnecessary qualification. For you don't believe Jesus had a brother at all, Apostle or not. So your WORDING is dishonest. We've been through this, dejudge.

So THERE is where YOU Craig B clearly stated that "In Galatians 1:19" "we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James." And do NOT try the exact wording tap dance either that is more nonsense.

 

[dejudge]

Good try, dejudge. But it won't work. What I said was

Nice try Craig B.

You will not ever remember that you ACTIVELY use Galatians 1.19 to argue that James was the brother of an historical Jesus.

You had NO idea that the name Jesus was NOT found anywhere in the passage deemed to be Galatians 1.19.


You had NO idea that the character called Jesus in the Pauline Corpus is FROM heaven--NOT from earth.

The Greek versions of Galatians 1.19 does NOT state anywhere that James the Apostle was the brother of an historical Jesus.

Galatians 1.19 is completely useless to argue for an HJ since it specifically uses the NOMINA SACRA for the LORD GOD of the Jews.

The NOMINA SACRA 'KY' is the SACRED NAME for the Lord God of the Jews in the OT and NT of the Jesus cult.

 

[dejudge]

Tell me where I have ever claimed that James is called by the words "brother of Jesus" in that text, dejudge.

Forgot about the The Historical Jesus II section of the thread have we?

Craig B:Yes. More than that: In Galatians 1:19, Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James. Whether he WAS an Apostle or not, "the Bible" says that Jesus had a brother James. By introducing the word Apostle you are INTRODUCING an unnecessary qualification. For you don't believe Jesus had a brother at all, Apostle or not. So your WORDING is dishonest. We've been through this, dejudge.

So THERE is where YOU Craig B clearly stated that "In Galatians 1:19" "we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James." And do NOT try the exact wording tap dance either that is more nonsense.

We have evidence that Craig B mis-represents himself.

It is extremely difficult and annoying to argue with Craig B when he constantly and conveniently cannot remember what he posted about his assumed Jesus in Galatians 1.19.

 

[Craig B]

Forgot about the The Historical Jesus II section of the thread have we?

Craig B:Yes. More than that: In Galatians 1:19, Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James. Whether he WAS an Apostle or not, "the Bible" says that Jesus had a brother James. By introducing the word Apostle you are INTRODUCING an unnecessary qualification. For you don't believe Jesus had a brother at all, Apostle or not. So your WORDING is dishonest. We've been through this, dejudge.

So THERE is where YOU Craig B clearly stated that "In Galatians 1:19" "we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James." And do NOT try the exact wording tap dance either that is more nonsense.

I will refer to exact wording, because that's what dejudge and I are currently talking about, so go and tap dance yourself. I state that Jesus is referred to because I am absolutely certain that Jesus is the "Lord" referred to by Paul: the evidence permits of no other conclusion. But I have never said that Galatians names Jesus. dejudge says that Galatians calls Jesus brother of the Lord God. He is referring to the words written on a specific page. It is he who has put the matter in terms of "Lord God" being in a particular manuscript, p46, at that point. If that approach is nonsense, it is dejudge's nonsense. Here it is.

The earliest Greek manuscripts Papyri 46 mentions an Apostle James the brother of the LORD GOD
...
We have images of Galatians 1 of Papyri 46 and it does NOT mention anywhere at all James was the brother of Jesus.

So James can't be Jesus' brother because ms P 46 Gal 1:19 does not mention Jesus. That's never been my argument. It's dejudge's argument. But, he goes on: P 46 mentions James, brother of the LORD GOD. That, says dejudge, is in the image of the page. Fine. Let's see it.

 

[Leumas]

... Tell me where I have ever claimed that James is called by the words "brother of Jesus" in that text, dejudge.
...

Goodness gracious!!

You are using the Bible to argue that James the Apostle was the brother of the Lord Jesus.

Yes. More than that: in Galatians 1:19, Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James. Whether he WAS an Apostle or not, "the Bible" says that Jesus had a brother James. By introducing the word Apostle you are INTRODUCING an unnecessary qualification. For you don't believe Jesus had a brother at all, Apostle or not. So your WORDING is dishonest. We've been through this, dejudge.

 

[Leumas]

... so go and tap dance yourself.

It looks to me like the only one doing the tap dancing and verbal bullying is you!

And that is besides the tap dancing around trying to deny that Paul thought Jesus to be a god.

 

[Leumas]

We have evidence that Craig B mis-represents himself.

It is extremely difficult and annoying to argue with Craig B when he constantly and conveniently cannot remember what he posted about his assumed Jesus in Galatians 1.19.

Yes indeed!!

Not to mention all the verbal bullying and disingenuous denial that Paul thought Jesus to be a god.

 

[dejudge]

I will refer to exact wording, because that's what dejudge and I are currently talking about, so go and tap dance yourself. I state that Jesus is referred to because I am absolutely certain that Jesus is the "Lord" referred to by Paul: the evidence permits of no other conclusion.

What penultimate amazing nonsense. You are absolutely certain WITHOUT evidence.

You have exposed that your argument is the very worst kind.

You use uncorroborated sources riddled with fiction, mythology, forgeries and false attribution as credible historical sources.

Your statement is baseless. Galatians 1.19 does NOT mention any character called Jesus.

The NOMINA SACRA 'KY' is the sacred name of the LORD GOD of the Jews.

The NOMINA SACRA 'KY' refers to the LORD GOD of the Jews hundreds of times in Greek versions of the Christian Bible.

In addition, 'KY' is not associated with an OBSCURE HJ/ preacher man/rebel/rabbi/criminal/blasphemer/ IDIOT/CRAZY MAN or unknown mere man.

 

[Stone]

I will refer to exact wording, because that's what dejudge and I are currently talking about, so go and tap dance yourself. I state that Jesus is referred to because I am absolutely certain that Jesus is the "Lord" referred to by Paul: the evidence permits of no other conclusion. But I have never said that Galatians names Jesus. dejudge says that Galatians calls Jesus brother of the Lord God. He is referring to the words written on a specific page. It is he who has put the matter in terms of "Lord God" being in a particular manuscript, p46, at that point. If that approach is nonsense, it is dejudge's nonsense. Here it is. So James can't be Jesus' brother because ms P 46 Gal 1:19 does not mention Jesus. That's never been my argument. It's dejudge's argument. But, he goes on: P 46 mentions James, brother of the LORD GOD. That, says dejudge, is in the image of the page. Fine. Let's see it.

You've got these myther bots dead to rights now in an out-and-out lie, and they know it, CraigB. That's why they'll never address your question here directly and honestly: "We are not programmed to answer in that area."

But good checkmate, CraigB. You've got them dead to rights here.

Stone

 

[dejudge]

The HJ argument is simply the very worst known to mankind.
Craig B had no idea that the word Jesus is NOT in Galatians 1.19 in existing manuscripts and Codices.

The propaganda and Chinese whispers have been exposed.

 

[Craig B]

Goodness gracious!!

No substantive content.

It looks to me like the only one doing the tap dancing and verbal bullying is you!

And that is besides the tap dancing around trying to deny that Paul thought Jesus to be a god.

No substantive content.

Yes indeed!!

Not to mention all the verbal bullying and disingenuous denial that Paul thought Jesus to be a god.

No substantive content. The expressions "tap dancing" and "verbal bullying" do not constitute reasoned argument, no matter how many times they are repeated.

 

[IanS]

Forgot about the The Historical Jesus II section of the thread have we?

Craig B :Yes. More than that:In Galatians 1:19, Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James. Whether he WAS an Apostle or not, "the Bible" says that Jesus had a brother James. By introducing the word Apostle you are INTRODUCING an unnecessary qualification. For you don't believe Jesus had a brother at all, Apostle or not. So your WORDING is dishonest. We've been through this, dejudge.

So THERE is where YOU Craig B clearly stated that "In Galatians 1:19" "we ARE TOLD that Jesus had a brother called James." And do NOT try the exact wording tap dance either that is more nonsense.

I will refer to exact wording, because that's what dejudge and I are currently talking about, so go and tap dance yourself. I state that Jesus is referred to because I am absolutely certain that Jesus is the "Lord" referred to by Paul: the evidence permits of no other conclusion. But I have never said that Galatians names Jesus. dejudge says that Galatians calls Jesus brother of the Lord God. He is referring to the words written on a specific page. It is he who has put the matter in terms of "Lord God" being in a particular manuscript, p46, at that point. If that approach is nonsense, it is dejudge's nonsense. Here it is. So James can't be Jesus' brother because ms P 46 Gal 1:19 does not mention Jesus. That's never been my argument. It's dejudge's argument. But, he goes on: P 46 mentions James, brother of the LORD GOD. That, says dejudge, is in the image of the page. Fine. Let's see it.

If Max quotes you correctly in the highlighted passage above, then you specifically did say that in Galatians 1:19 the writer tells any readers that Jesus had a brother called James. That is exactly what those quoted words say. Are you quoted correctly saying that?

But instead of denying that you ever said what is given in Max‘s quote (where everyone here can easily see what it says), you should be very interested in what dejudge is saying about this, because if he is correct then it casts into very serious doubt that particular line in Galatians where it says “other apostles saw I none, save James the “the lords brother”.

Because if I understand him correctly, what dejudge is saying is that if you look at the actual words in P46, it does not in fact say “lord”. Instead it says (according to dejudge) “KY”, which dejudge says is a so-called “Nomina Sacra” meaning “the Lord God”.

In which case that line on Galatians is apparently referring to “James” as a brother of “the Lord God”.

 

[maximara]

If Max quotes you correctly in the highlighted passage above, then you specifically did say that in Galatians 1:19 the writer tells any readers that Jesus had a brother called James. That is exactly what those quoted words say. Are you quoted correctly saying that?

There was a reason i provided a link back to the original post by Craig B that I was referencing; I don't expect anyone to take my word alone on something.

If at all possible I will provide references and links to those references if they are online (not all are). This is a little something called providing proof.

But instead of denying that you ever said what is given in Max‘s quote (where everyone here can easily see what it says), you should be very interested in what dejudge is saying about this, because if he is correct then it casts into very serious doubt that particular line in Galatians where it says “other apostles saw I none, save James the “the lords brother”.

Because if I understand him correctly, what dejudge is saying is that if you look at the actual words in P46, it does not in fact say “lord”. Instead it says (according to dejudge) “KY”, which dejudge says is a so-called “Nomina Sacra” meaning “the Lord God”.

In which case that line on Galatians is apparently referring to “James” as a brother of “the Lord God”.

The Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts has Manuscript: P46 online but I don't know if it is the entire thing but if the relevant part is there then we can check things.

 

[Craig B]

Because if I understand him correctly, what dejudge is saying is that if you look at the actual words in P46, it does not in fact say “lord”. Instead it says (according to dejudge) “KY”, which dejudge says is a so-called “Nomina Sacra” meaning “the Lord God”.

In which case that line on Galatians is apparently referring to “James” as a brother of “the Lord God”.

We haven't discussed this absurdity yet. Perhaps now's as good a time as any. I have asked for evidence that Paul thought that Jesus is God.

dejudge says that the image of P 46 contains that expression. Only when we enquire further, are we informed that it is a question of a nomen sacrum. In a second or third century Christian work. And it means "Lord God", we are asked to believe unquestioningly, because of course God is called Lord by Christians; and third century Christians believed Christ to be God. But that proves nothing about Paul, only the opinions of his copyists centuries later. Apart from dejudge, does anyone here believe that Paul is entirely a second or third century forgery?

Anyway, does the nomen sacrum in question (KY) mean "Lord God", or simply "Lord", often applicable to God? Or is there another NS specifically meaning "God"? Well, why the hell don't we look? Let's do that. It's in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra#List_of_Greek_nomina_sacra.English
Meaning Greek Word Nominative (Subject) Genitive (Possessive)
God Θεός ΘΣ ΘΥ
Lord Κύριος ΚΣ ΚΥ
Now, I'm spending no more time on this nonsense. KY is NS for Lord. The Galatians expression means "brother of the Lord".

 

[Craig B]

Paul often uses such expressions. When he wrote to the Corinthians, do you think he used the Nomen Sacrum here?

Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? (1 Cor. 9:5).

"The other apostles and the brothers of God, and Cephas". Nonsense.

And as wiki says: ... "it is not known precisely when and how the nomina sacra first arose". But sure as hell Paul didn't use them.

 

[dejudge]

.....Anyway, does the nomen sacrum in question (KY) mean "Lord God", or simply "Lord", often applicable to God? Or is there another NS specifically meaning "God"? Well, why the hell don't we look? Let's do that. It's in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra#List_of_Greek_nomina_sacra.English
Meaning Greek Word Nominative (Subject) Genitive (Possessive)
God Θεός ΘΣ ΘΥ
Lord Κύριος ΚΣ ΚΥ
Now, I'm spending no more time on this nonsense. KY is NS for Lord. The Galatians expression means "brother of the Lord".

Craig B continues to expose his absurdities.

Here he argues that 'KY' is the NOMINA SACRA for LORD.


But in a previous post he declares "I am absolutely certain that Jesus is the "Lord" referred to by Paul".


Craig B has completely forgotten that Jesus is the Son of God in Galatians.

The NOMINA SACRA 'KY' is the sacred name for the LORD GOD JESUS if the LORD refers to JESUS the Son of God in Galatians.

1. Galatians 2:20 ----I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2. Galatians 4:4 ----But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.