He hallucinated no such thing. This is what Paul says about the "vision".
And here is what he means by God's son. God resurrected him.
The Historical Jesus III
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It would make sense if Jesus was a 2nd century preacher, but not necessarily in Judea (He could have been acting in and around a temple other than The Temple; there were plenty of others in a variety of locations).
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The Dream-world was big in those times - it had been was was for centuries. One of the best extant recordings of this is by Aristides in Sacred Tales and Orations in the 2nd century.
I have no idea how that relates to anything I wrote in my post.
Visions. They were big on dreams as revelatory 'visions' and placed a lot of significance on them.
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Naturally, you forget to mention that Ehrman's HJ argument is rejected by Carrier and Doherty.
In fact, Carrier admitted Did Jesus Exist? is probably the worse HJ argument.
It is most amazing that Ehrman wants people in the 21st century to take the Christian Bible seriously after he exposed the forgeries, false attribution, fiction/mythology, discrepancies, contradictions and historical problems.
Christians themselves have DISMISSED an historical Jesus [a mere man with a human father] since at least the 2nd century.
Paul said that in which century?
The passage you quote ONLY confirms the character called Paul was a LIAR. Even If there was an actual Jesus and that he died then Neither God Nor Jesus could have revealed anything to Paul.
Paul used gLuke according Christians writers of antiquity.
The existing hand-written manuscripts called Papyri 46 were NOT written by Paul if it is argued that Paul lived in the time of King Aretas.
In fact, Paul the Hebrew of Hebrews of the tribe of Benjamin is UNKNOWN in ALL existing manuscripts of non-apologetics.
CraigB said:
Romans 1:3 ----concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.[/quote]
The Pauline writer stated Jesus was the Lord God from heaven, equal to God, God's Own Son, and God Creator.
The Pauline Jesus was Very God of VERY God--Very Myth of Very Myth.
Christians of antiquity who used the Pauline Corpus admit Jesus was born of a Ghost.
The HJ argument is a FARCE.
It is most amusing, most bizarre, that a 21st century Atheist is attempting to use the Christian Bible to promote the Heresy that Jesus of the same Christian Bible was really a mere man.
re Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist?
Not to mention the very poor glib assertions in place of actual arguments.
Yes, Erhman published some very good work before he wrote Did Jesus Exist?
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No-one has been able to present any credible historical data for Jesus of Nazareth for at least 1800 years.
Ehrman must have known in advance of writing that there was no historical data to support his HJ argument.
Essentially, "Did Jesus Exist?" is a BLATANT FARCE.
No-one, Scholar or not, Christian or not, can present historical data for Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus of Nazareth was a Myth/Fiction character from Conception to Ascension.
In effect, an historical Jesus is NOT historically Plausible.
The Historical Jesus is undocumented unevidenced modern fiction or modern heresy.
Ehrman must have known in advance of writing that there was no historical data to support his HJ argument.
Essentially, "Did Jesus Exist?" is a BLATANT FARCE.
No-one, Scholar or not, Christian or not, can present historical data for Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus of Nazareth was a Myth/Fiction character from Conception to Ascension.
In effect, an historical Jesus is NOT historically Plausible.
The Historical Jesus is undocumented unevidenced modern fiction or modern heresy.
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Your claim is fiction. You don't know when the Pauline Corpus was written, what was originally written, what an original Pauline letter would contain and don't know if the Pauline Corpus is historical.
The writers under the name of Paul did not ever state anywhere that they were the founders of the Jesus cult.
The authors called Paul stated they PERSECUTED the Faith that they NOW preached.
The author of 1st Corinthians claimed he was the LAST to see Jesus AFTER he was raised from the dead.
It is hopelessly illogical that the PERSECUTOR of the FAITH is the founder.
It is so ridiculous.
If it is argued that Jesus the Christ did exist and was a preacher then it would be expected that he was the FOUNDER of the Jesus cult BEFORE he died.
Please, stop your propaganda. You invent stories about Paul from your imagination.
Christian writers have ALREADY admitted that the Pauline writers KNEW gLuke and that the letters of the Pauline Corpus were written AFTER the Apocalypse of John [Revelation].
Maybe so, but Paul doesn't tell us that he dreamed that Jesus was God. Nor do the accounts of the "vision" in Acts seem to be describing a dream. It looks more like an epileptic seizure.
What nonsense you post!!! Paul doesn't tell us he had epileptic seizures. You continue to confirm that the HJ argument is the most bizarre unreasonable argument known to mankind
Clark Kent was not really Superman he was just a mild mannered journalist who daydreamed too much how to impress Lois Lane.
Cherry Picking of the highest caliber
Galatians 1:11-12
- 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
- 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:3-4
- 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
- 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Philippians 2:19
- 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.
Romans 14:8-14
- 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
- 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
- 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
- 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
- 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
- 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
- 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Acts 22:6-14
- 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
- 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
- 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
- 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
- 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
- 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
- 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
- 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
- 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Acts 26:13-24
- 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
- 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
- 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
- 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
- 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
- 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
- ...
- 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
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It is like trying to rationalize Superman... he wasn't really a super alien he was just a good journalist who jumped over a fence once to save Lois Lane from a mugger and the story just got exaggerated a little when Jimmy Olsen wrote an article about it many many years later in the Daily Planet.
It is nothing but Cognitive Dissonance Alleviation Casuistry.
What they are doing is trying to somehow still maintain some FACE SAVING from having to admit that their culture and society and history has been based upon nothing more than a FAIRY TALE.
So they rationalize that ok, we can throw away the fairy tale aspect, but then there is still REAL stuff left in there and we have not been UTTERLY AND TOTALLY DUPED for all those centuries by a MYTHICAL FABLE.
In fact not any other fiction based on so tenuous an evidence for historicity, as the gospels, would be so hotly and emotionally debated for the establishment of the real historicity of its magic-wielding demigod supernatural hero and his entourage of hobos.
No scholar gets really hot under the collar arguing vehemently that Arthur was a real flesh and blood person albeit not really at all like he is depicted in the fables.
No scholars of Robin Hood (if there are even any) are constantly in contention over the issue of his historicity albeit he never ever even laid eyes on a Friar Tuck or a big Little John not to mention his mortifying green tights and feathered pointy hats.
No scholars or laity give a damn whether Hercules was based on a real flesh and blood person albeit he was not a demigod nor even could kill a dog let alone a lion.
However, in the case of Jesus, the so called scholars (in addition to the laity of course) are not even aware of their extreme special pleading in an attempt to assuage the throbbing pangs of a chronic cognitive dissonance on so many levels and variations touching their inner psyches.
They are desperate to prove that it is not all a big hoax like all the other woo they are increasingly beginning to realize is claptrap.
Much like children who are driven to tears and dismay after discovering the level of adult complicity of their society and parents in deceiving them for so long and in so many ways with the Santa fable.
So they carry on ferociously debating against the fictiveness of the Jesus fables postulating tenuous modicums of possible likelihood of perhaps maybe something approaching a near similarity to some kind of similitude of a real person or an amalgam persona who they begrudgingly and with extreme consternation concede might maybe possibly not have had anything magical about him, but could have been a xenophobic zealously benighted fanatically religious Rabbi or terrorist or freedom fighter or old-new-age hippie or cult leader according to one's own wishful thinking for what one needs this Jesus to be.
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Belz...
Fiend God
Origen's claim that the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple was punishment for not the death of James but the crucifixion of Jesus which had supposedly happened 30 years before the death of James is another example. Origen is effectively saying God woke up one day and said to himself 'You know the Jews crucified my kid should punish them for that. So what if it has been over 30 years.'
I'm not sure that counts as a 'miss' for use of the word 'recent' or its equivalents, since divine vengeance has been a very fuzzy concept that has historically not necessarily been chronologically close to its 'cause'.
The fact that there were multiple irreconcilable versions of Jesus stories by Christians of antiquity is evidence that there was no known established historical data for such a character since at least the 2nd century.
For hundreds of years, at least 1800 years, and up to today, Christians have VIOLENTLY argued about the nature of Jesus.
This must be a world record.
1. Some Christians argued that Jesus was the product of a Ghost.
2. Some Christians argued that Jesus was God.
3. Some Christians argued that Jesus was WITHOUT birth.
4. Some Christians argued Jesus was SIMULTANEOUSLY a GOD, a Ghost and a man.
5. Some Christians argued that Jesus was a man but Christ was a Ghost.
6. Spme Christians argued that Jesus was GOD CREATOR.
7. Some Christians argued that that the son of God had NO Flesh but APPEARED like a man.
8. Some Christians argued Jesus was second to God.
9. Some Christians argued that Jesus was the LORD GOD who came down from heaven.
10. Some Christians argued that there was a time when Jesus did NOT EXIST.
The evidence from antiquity is overwhelming.
Christians NEVER had any established historical data for their Jesus.
For hundreds of years, at least 1800 years, and up to today, Christians have VIOLENTLY argued about the nature of Jesus.
This must be a world record.
1. Some Christians argued that Jesus was the product of a Ghost.
2. Some Christians argued that Jesus was God.
3. Some Christians argued that Jesus was WITHOUT birth.
4. Some Christians argued Jesus was SIMULTANEOUSLY a GOD, a Ghost and a man.
5. Some Christians argued that Jesus was a man but Christ was a Ghost.
6. Spme Christians argued that Jesus was GOD CREATOR.
7. Some Christians argued that that the son of God had NO Flesh but APPEARED like a man.
8. Some Christians argued Jesus was second to God.
9. Some Christians argued that Jesus was the LORD GOD who came down from heaven.
10. Some Christians argued that there was a time when Jesus did NOT EXIST.
The evidence from antiquity is overwhelming.
Christians NEVER had any established historical data for their Jesus.
Belz...
Fiend God
Depends what you consider 'evidence'. Are the Josephus passages evidence ? Even if they are not genuine ? Is Christianity itself not evidence ? Even if it turns out to be based on a total myth ? After all, the motions of the stars is evidence for geocentrism. It's just that the preponderence of evidence points to heliocentrism.
The bibble is the major part of the evidence, but I disagree that it is the whole of it, under any definition of 'evidence' that I know of. Do I find said evidence convincing ? To a degree; probably not to Craig's degree, but more than Maximara's. However, what I won't do is either deny categorically that the evidence is there, nor will I categorically claim that it's solid.
Belz...
Fiend God
So now you believe in the resurrection of Jesus and in God?
Oookkkk then!!!
Adopting Dejudge's debating style really doesn't add to the discussion.
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