The Historical Jesus III

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They are worshiping a GOD who assumed the role of a man for a little while but still remaining a God.

... they worship the GOD and his SACRIFICE for which he needed to ASSUME THE ROLE of a man for a little while but still remaining a god in order to save humans and make them gods.
Yep
459 The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature"​

and specifically,

461 ... the Church calls "Incarnation" the 'fact' that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it.​
ie. humans could also accomplish salvation if the 'Son of God' had assumed a human nature for his sacrifice and his salvation ie. resurrection.

The Catechism describes the development of the narrative and the purpose of its development.
 
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So what? The Christians worship Jesus as God and, as has been shown, the Catholics define him thus
464 ... He 'became' truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.
That is the object of their worship and it was correctly observed in the earliest days of the Church by Pliny-[the-Younger] -
LETTER 96; TO THE EMPEROR TRAJAN

"... they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god."
This is the specific peculiarity of Christianity, not found in the other major religions.
except Pliny-the-Younger (in that letter to Trajan) may have been referring to people worshiping someone else as [a] Christ.
 
They are worshiping a GOD who assumed the role of a man for a little while but still remaining a God.

... they worship the GOD and his SACRIFICE for which he needed to ASSUME THE ROLE of a man for a little while but still remaining a god in order to save humans and make them gods.
It's rather unique in theological terms. The god made a sacrifice to the people, for a change (cf. the people making a sacrifice to the god).

And, b/c the God was described in human terms, with accompanying stories about him being human1, the idea that humans could be similarly saved ("partakers of the divine nature" (460) ie. resurrected), also for eternity2, was easy to sell. Brilliant.

1 461 " ... the Son of God assumed a human nature ... "

2 461 " ... the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it."

.

(I reckon it's even possible Jesus was a late 2nd C or 3rd C preacher telling a version of the story of 'Christ'.)
 
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I assert: the Catholic Church preaches that Jesus is God and Jesus is man. So the Catholic Church worships a man as God. dejudge denies this fact. dejudge is wrong. You write all manner of vituperation. But nonetheless the Catholic Church worships a man as God. The man may or may not have existed. But real or not, the Church worships him as God. Do you understand this?

You have exposed your absurdity and bizarre logic !! If your supposed man did not exist then your argument is total nonsense. If your supposed man was not real then your speculation is wholly flawed.


You are openly MIS-REPRESENTING the teachings of The Church.

Jesus is GOD from heaven from whether or not he manifested himself in the Flesh

The writings of the Church state Jesus was GOD Creator, the Logos BEFORE he became Flesh.

Jesus was GOD before he had Flesh in Church writings.

Jesus in the NT is the LORD God Creator from heaven BEFORE he had Flesh.

Jesus was worshiped as a God because he was God [WITH OR WITHOUT Flesh] in writings of the Church.

Craig B said:
The Church does not preach that Jesus is 1/3 of a god. So in discussing dejudge's misunderstanding of what the Church says, there is no point in writing down what it does not say. Can you grasp this? The Church explicitly says that Jesus was not a demigod. So there is no point in writing that when discussing what the Church preaches about Jesus. Can you comprehend that?

The Church does NOT preach that Jesus was a man who was DEIFIED like the Roman Emperors.

The Church preached, taught and wrote that God came DOWN from heaven and clothed himself with Flesh and was called Jesus.

Jesus is GOD CREATOR and GOD INCARNATE in writings of the Church.

Aristides Apology
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High.

And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel...

Jesus was GOD with ASSUMED Flesh.


Tertullian's On the Flesh of Christ
In order, therefore, that He who was already the Son of God— of God the Father's seed, that is to say, the Spirit— might also be the Son of man, He only wanted to assume flesh, of the flesh of man without the seed of a man; for the seed of a man was unnecessary for One who had the seed of God.

As, then, before His birth of the virgin, He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father.

Craig B, please stop mis-representing the writings of the Church with your open HERESY.

The writings of the Church were used to ARGUE AGAINST an historical Jesus [a man with a human father].

See Church writings entitled "Against Heresies" and "Refutation of All Heresies"

Jesus was VERY GOD of VERY GOD according to the Church.

According to Irenaeus, the historical Jesus [as mere man with a human father] is a product of LIES.


The HJ argument is the very worst argument known to mankind since it can be shown that the Jesus cult of Christians do NOT worship men as Gods and stated their Jesus was GOD Creator ffrom the beginning.
 
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All manner of things are technically possible but some real evidence would be nice.

Where is your 'nice' evidence for a character called Jesus of Nazareth?

Jesus of Nazareth was the son of a NICE Ghost [a Holy one] Before he Transfigured and Walked on Water.

Jesus of Nazareth must have been a REAL NICE Ghost.

It is claimed in 2nd century and later manuscripts that Pilate found NO Fault with the son of the NICE Ghost.

In the Pauline Corpus it is stated Jesus [the NICE Ghost son] was the LORD GOD from heaven.

No wonder that Pilate found NO Fault with Jesus.

Jesus was INHERENTLY Nice in the myth/fiction fables called the New Testament.
 
Where is your 'nice' evidence for a character called Jesus of Nazareth?

Jesus of Nazareth was the son of a NICE Ghost [a Holy one] Before he Transfigured and Walked on Water.

Jesus of Nazareth must have been a REAL NICE Ghost.

It is claimed in 2nd century and later manuscripts that Pilate found NO Fault with the son of the NICE Ghost.

In the Pauline Corpus it is stated Jesus [the NICE Ghost son] was the LORD GOD from heaven.

No wonder that Pilate found NO Fault with Jesus.

Jesus was INHERENTLY Nice in the myth/fiction fables called the New Testament.
This is all complete drivel.
 
... The Christians worship Jesus as God and, as has been shown, the Catholics define him thus That is the object of their worship and it was correctly observed in the earliest days of the Church by Pliny.

Again, you MIS-REPRESENT the Pliny letter to Trajan.

The Pliny letter does NOT mention a character called Jesus.

It is just total nonsense that the word 'Christ' can only refer to Jesus.
It is just total nonsense that the word 'Christ' can only refer to a human being.

For the millionth time, please, stop your propaganda.

We have writings of antiquity which show that the word Christ can refer to a SEPARATE Spiritual character.



It is claimed in Church writings that there were Christians who claimed 'Christ' was a SEPARATE being [a Holy Spirit], who was in the form of the dove at baptism or was brought into existence by the unkown God who was without birth.

See Against Heresies attributed to Irenaeus.

See Refutation of All Heresies attributed to Hippolytus.

Against Heresies 1
But the father without birth and without name, perceiving that they would be destroyed, sent his own first-begotten Nous (he it is who is called Christ) to bestow deliverance on them that believe in him, from the power of those who made the world.

:Against Heresies" 1
Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler, and that then he proclaimed the unknown Father, and performed miracles. But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassible, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being.

The Pliny letter to Trajan is completely useless to argue for an historical Jesus.
 
The Pliny letter to Trajan is completely useless to argue for an historical Jesus.
OK, so what source of evidence should we use to try to find the truth? I know what; I'll ask dejudge.
See Against Heresies attributed to Irenaeus.

See Refutation of All Heresies attributed to Hippolytus.
Well, Irenaeus and Hippolytus: they're much more believable than Pliny the Younger, aren't they? So thanks, dejudge.
 
OK, so what source of evidence should we use to try to find the truth? I know what; I'll ask dejudge. Well, Irenaeus and Hippolytus: they're much more believable than Pliny the Younger, aren't they? So thanks, dejudge.

Whether or not Irenaeus and Hippolytus are more believable than Pliny the younger have no effect of the fact that you write fiction and MIS-REPRESENT the teachings of the Church and letter of Pliny to Trajan.

1. The Pliny letter to Trajan does not identify a character called Jesus or Jesus of Nazareth.

2. Church writings state Jesus [the Transfiguring Water walker] was the LOGOS, God Creator from the beginning, and was GOD, the Lord God from heaven.

3. The Jesus cult of Christians do NOT worship men as Gods--Not even the Emperors of Rome

It is absurd and quite illogical for you to use the writings of the Church to argue your HERESY that Jesus in the Canon was really a mere man man with a human father when you KNOW that the Canon specifically stated the ORIGIN and BIRTH of Jesus.

Please, stop the propaganda.

Help us to expose the fallacious claims of the Church that THEIR Jesus existed as the Son of a Ghost and God Creator.

The Jesus character was obvious Mythology/Fiction.

The HJ argument is indeed the very worst argument known to mankind since it is based on sources of known fiction, forgeries, false attribution, contradictions, discrepancies, historical problems and events which did not and could not have happened.
 
Whether or not Irenaeus and Hippolytus are more believable than Pliny the younger have no effect of the fact that you write fiction and MIS-REPRESENT the teachings of the Church and letter of Pliny to Trajan.

1. The Pliny letter to Trajan does not identify a character called Jesus or Jesus of Nazareth.

2. Church writings state Jesus [the Transfiguring Water walker] was the LOGOS, God Creator from the beginning, and was GOD, the Lord God from heaven.

3. The Jesus cult of Christians do NOT worship men as Gods--Not even the Emperors of Rome

It is absurd and quite illogical for you to use the writings of the Church to argue your HERESY that Jesus in the Canon was really a mere man man with a human father when you KNOW that the Canon specifically stated the ORIGIN and BIRTH of Jesus.

Please, stop the propaganda.

Help us to expose the fallacious claims of the Church that THEIR Jesus existed as the Son of a Ghost and God Creator.
I don't believe that any real Jesus existed as the Son of a Ghost and God Creator, if that sets your mind at rest. What is evident is that Pliny, the value of whose testimony you deny, doesn't tell us that the Christians' object of worship was an authentic divinity; while enthusiasts like Irenaeus and Hippolytus, whose works you promote as valuable, do tell us this. That is very mysterious, dejudge.
 
All manner of things are technically possible but some real evidence would be nice.

Which is the problem with a Reductive Jesus: what we have is so bad messed up that even evidence for anything that is NOT on par with Robin Hood or King Arthur is a trip to nowhere.

I don't believe that any real Jesus existed as the Son of a Ghost and God Creator, if that sets your mind at rest.

As I have said using the total off the wall goofiness of the Triumphalist Jesus to argue against a possible Reductive Jesus is itself silly.

Given how common the name Yeshua was and how many would be messiahs were running around in the 6 BCE to 70 CE period one can NOT prove there wasn't some short duration preacher that some group of fanatics latched on to and transformed into a wildly successful preacher.

Something similar can be seen with the work of Ephraim McDowell (November 11, 1771 – June 25, 1830) who is promoted as a pioneer surgeon. The reality is his work was a practical dead end; even if a surgeon was as "scrupulously clean" as McDowell they still had the issue of the patent dying of shock as there was no practical anesthesia in Western medicine.

The problem comes in that if the Gospels are in the "the narrative is essentially false" part of the historical Myth Strauss put forth over 100 years ago then the trail may go no where as Jesus may have actually preached outside the traditional 28-36 CE time frame presented in them.
 
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I don't believe that any real Jesus existed as the Son of a Ghost and God Creator, if that sets your mind at rest.

It is obvious that you believe the character called the Transfiguring Water walker, the son of the Ghost and God Creator in the Christian Bible was really a real man.

You go on the internet and tell people all over the world that the transfiguring water water, son of the ghost and God Creator was really a real man when you know that Christians writers of the Canon and the Church ADMITTED THEIR Jesus was born of a Ghost WITHOUT a human father.

What fiction and propaganda you post on the internet!!!

You believe MYTHOLOGY is history or else you would not be using the Christian Bible.

1. The Christian writer called Aristides ADMITTED his Jesus was God from heaven.

2. The Christian writer called Justin Martyr ADMITTED his Jesus was born WITHOUT Sexual union.

3. The Christian writer called Irenaeus ADMITTED his Jesus was born of a Ghost.

4. The Christian writer under the name of Tertullian ADMITTED his Jesus was begotten of God.

5. The Christian writer called Origen ADMITTED his Jesus was born of Ghost.

6. A writer under the name of Paul ADMITTED his Jesus was the Lord from heaven.

Jesus of Nazareth was REALLY Fiction/Myth just like Romulus.

See Plutarch's Romulus.


Craig B said:
What is evident is that Pliny, the value of whose testimony you deny, doesn't tell us that the Christians' object of worship was an authentic divinity; while enthusiasts like Irenaeus and Hippolytus, whose works you promote as valuable, do tell us this. That is very mysterious, dejudge.

What is evident is that "Against Heresies" and 'Refutation of All Heresies" do admit that the historical Jesus [a mere man with a human father] was a product of LIES and craftily constructed Plausibilities.


Against Heresies 1
1. Inasmuch as certain men have set the truth aside, and bring in lying words and vain genealogies, which, as the apostle says, "minister questions rather than godly edifying which is in faith," and by means of their craftily-constructed plausibilities draw away the minds of the inexperienced and take them captive, [I have felt constrained, my dear friend, to compose the following treatise in order to expose and counteract their machinations.]...

An historical Jesus was WITHOUT historical data since at least the 2nd century or at the composition of "Against Heresies".
 
It is

1. The Christian writer called Aristides ADMITTED his Jesus was God from heaven.
2. The Christian writer called Justin Martyr ADMITTED his Jesus was born WITHOUT Sexual union.
3. The Christian writer called Irenaeus ADMITTED his Jesus was born of a Ghost.
4. The Christian writer under the name of Tertullian ADMITTED his Jesus was begotten of God.
5. The Christian writer called Origen ADMITTED his Jesus was born of Ghost.
6. A writer under the name of Paul ADMITTED his Jesus was the Lord from heaven.

Jesus of Nazareth was REALLY Fiction/Myth just like Romulus.

See Plutarch's Romulus.

What is evident is that "Against Heresies" and 'Refutation of All Heresies" do admit that the historical Jesus [a mere man with a human father] was a product of LIES and craftily constructed Plausibilities.
You accept the testimony of religious fanatics who believed that Jesus was God, when they tell you that Jesus was not a mere man? Wow, dejudge.
 
That is not the point of this discussion. Whether worshipping a man as God is buffoonery or not, Christians do it. By saying they do not, dejudge has fallen into error. Again.

That is not true!

They are worshiping a GOD who assumed the role of a man for a little while but still remaining a God.

They do not worship the man.

They worship the ACT OF SACRIFICE that the GOD made for them so as to help them become gods.

They do not worship the man... they worship the GOD and his SACRIFICE for which he needed to ASSUME THE ROLE of a man for a little while but still remaining a god in order to save humans and make them gods.

All manner of things are technically possible but some real evidence would be nice.


As far Jesus is concerned (and that is what we are actually talking about in these HJ threads), I have given you very direct and actually unarguable evidence, i.e. "evidence" which is as close to a "Fact" as it's possible ever to get, showing that what was said about Jesus was untrue and that the people who wrote about him in the bible were unreliable in the extreme.

What more evidence would it ever be humanely possible to give?

The first massive chunk of evidence showing how seriously unreliable the gospels all are, is that in relatively modern times, e.g. only from as recently as about 1850 to 1900, it gradually became clear from modern science that the supernatural claims of the gospels could not actually be true (because they are physically impossible).

The really important factor to understand in respect of that, is that for almost all of the last 2000 years since the biblical writing, people had no idea that supernatural claims were impossible. On the contrary, in biblical times almost everyone was absolutely certain that miracles and other supernatural events happened all the time. They thought it was indisputable fact (mainly because religious preachers told them it was indisputable fact).

But what that means is that the gospel writers who packed their tales of Jesus with supernatural claims about him, were very seriously unreliable to put it mildly. They are certainly not to be trusted as reliable "witnesses" for anything they said about Jesus. And that has been "proven" as an unarguable fact by the scientific discovery that such tales of the supernatural and miracle-working are certainly untrue.

You really don't need any more than that to completely discredit the proven fiction of the gospel writers.

But in addition to the science, it is now known that all four writers of the canonical gospels were creating their Jesus stories by a process called "fulfilment citation" using the ancient prophecies of the OT. That is - they were searching the OT for any sentences they could interpret as something to be claimed about Jesus. So that is really very direct and unarguable evidence for where the gospel writers were finding their Jesus beliefs.

Those two factors alone, and there are of course many others, are each very direct and unarguable evidence "proving" how totally unreliable the gospel writing was.

And just to pre-empt the usual objection that such indisputable evidence against the veracity of the biblical writers is not directly evidence about Jesus himself - you cannot of course ever have direct evidence of the non-existence of things that don't actually exist! That is - if Jesus never actually existed as a person, then you can't have direct evidence of him as a non-existent person ... you can only ever show evidence that the stories about such a person were seriously unreliable, or in the case of Jesus, eventually proved literally impossible.
 
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You accept the testimony of religious fanatics who believed that Jesus was God, when they tell you that Jesus was not a mere man? Wow, dejudge.

You accept the testimony in the Canon of the religious fanatics as the history of your Jesus.

You ACTIVELY use and RELY on the Canon of THE FANACTICS.

The fanatics gave testimony in the NT that THEIR Jesus was a Transfiguring Water walker, the Lord God from heaven and God Creator from the beginning yet you BELIEVE Jesus was really real.

You had no idea that myth/fiction characters, Gods and Ghosts. can be described as human beings.

Romulus, born of a Ghost and a Virgin, had a brother called Remus in Plutarch's Romulus.
 
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All manner of things are technically possible but some real evidence would be nice.
Pliny-the_Younger's letter refers to Christians and a Christ. His contemporaries also wrote about Christ/Chrestus, Chrestians, and Christians. Suetonius refers to a 'Chrestus' (in Vitae Claudius 25.4). Hadrian's letter to Servianus refers to Christians in Egypt worshiping Serapis. Tacitus's Annals 15.44 refers to 'Chrestians' and Christ. All outside Judea or Galilee.

" in some parts of the ancient world Marcionites were called “Christians” while groups with closer ties to Judaism were called “Nazoreans”. "

http://www.westarinstitute.org/blog/marcion-forgotten-father-inventor-new-testament/
There were plenty of Gnostic religions and mystery/pagan religions around the eastern Mediterranean at the time, and many were growing and leaving legacies in terms of archaeology (eg. Mithraea, Serapea) and other artifacts from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries (eg. 3rd century coins depicting Serapis throughout the eastern Roman empire), while Jesus-based Christianity was not.

Libraries and texts that might have been witness to these events have, however, been destroyed. History is, after all, written by the victors.
 
Pliny-the_Younger's letter refers to Christians and a Christ. His contemporaries also wrote about Christ/Chrestus, Chrestians, and Christians. Suetonius refers to a 'Chrestus' (in Vitae Claudius 25.4). Hadrian's letter to Servianus refers to Christians in Egypt worshiping Serapis. Tacitus's Annals 15.44 refers to 'Chrestians' and Christ. All outside Judea or Galilee.


There were plenty of Gnostic religions and mystery/pagan religions around the eastern Mediterranean at the time, and many were growing and leaving legacies in terms of archaeology (eg. Mithraea, Serapea) and other artifacts from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries (eg. 3rd century coins depicting Serapis throughout the eastern Roman empire), while Jesus-based Christianity was not.

Libraries and texts that might have been witness to these events have, however, been destroyed. History is, after all, written by the victors.
Judea and Galilee underwent particularly severe destruction in the first and again in the second century. Its capital was completely demolished and rebuilt as a pagan centre. Its population rejected Christianity which, as a distinct religion, in any case developed from the very beginning outside Judaea.

All the most ancient canonical texts are extant in Greek, and were even composed in that language, rather than Aramaic.
 
Judea and Galilee underwent particularly severe destruction in the first and again in the second century.
Widespread? In several places/centres? As part of the Roman-Jewish Wars?

Its capital was completely demolished and rebuilt as a pagan centre. Its population rejected Christianity which, as a distinct religion, in any case developed from the very beginning outside Judaea.
Its capital? Jerusalem? Did Samaria have a capital?
 
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Widespread? In several places/centres? As part of the Roman-Jewish Wars?


Its capital? Jerusalem? Did Samaria have a capital?
Yes. At various times. It had been destroyed by John Hyrcanus, and was later refounded as a Roman city by Augustus, and rebuilt by Septimius Severus.
 
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