The Historical Jesus III

[Craig B]

It is possible that there was a preexisting celestial being Jesus that was conflated with an obscure teacher of that name who came later which means you could have the Christ Myth and [obscure] historical Jesus coexisting.

Of course it is possible, but this simply illustrates my point that there is no more evidence for the existence of a Christ Myth than there is for a historical Jesus. Therefore the cosmic myth notion is as improbable as anything it seeks to explain.

In fact it is more so, because our sparse early sources (assuming they were not all forged by packs of insane liars in the fourth century or later, as dejudge asserts) imply the existence of a messianic cult preaching in the name of a person, although they tell us almost nothing about the person. They don't relate the pre-existence of a cosmic cult with supernatural beings dwelling, and being incarnated and sacrificed, in the metaphysical Sublunary domain.

 

[Mcreal]

It is possible that there was a preexisting celestial being Jesus that was conflated with an obscure teacher of that name who came later which means you could have the Christ Myth and [obscure] historical Jesus coexisting.

I think it is quite possible (probable, even) that

"there was a preexisting celestial-being Christ that was conflated with an obscure preacher who came later"​

The notion of the Logos suggests a preexisting celestial-being. The Gnostic texts, such as the Docetics, also suggest this.

The final NT-narrative is the almost certainly the result of cumulative elaboration.

 

[Craig B]

I think The notion of the Logos suggests a preexisting celestial-being.

Can you cite the sources that lead you to this conclusion? John 1:1-5? Anything else?

 

[Craig B]

I think it is quite possible (probable, even) that

"there was a preexisting celestial-being Christ that was conflated with an obscure preacher who came later"​

The notion of the Logos suggests a preexisting celestial-being. The Gnostic texts, such as the Docetics, also suggest this.

The question is this: is there anything in Judaism that suggests a pre-existing celestial Messiah? I think there is clearly not.

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5) ... But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

 

[Mcreal]

... is there anything in Judaism that suggests a pre-existing celestial Messiah?

I wasn't thinking of Judaism.

I was thinking of "the Gnostic texts, such as the Docetics"; as well as the mystery/pagan religions, and other works of antiquity, such as the 2nd century's Aristides' Sacred Tales and his Orations
.

 

[Mcreal]

Originally Posted by Mcreal
I think The notion of the Logos suggests a preexisting celestial-being.

Can you cite the sources that lead you to this conclusion? John 1:1-5? Anything else?

Philo; Alexander of Cotiaeum, who taught Aristides & Marcus Aurelius*; Stoicism;
Neoplatinism - Porphyry, Iamblichus, Ammonius Saccas, Plotinus, etc

The 'Angel of the Lord' in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo.

Early translators from Greek, like Jerome in the 4th century, were frustrated by the inadequacy of any single Latin word to convey the Logos expressed in the Gospel of John.

Philonic Hermeneutics in the Letter to the Hebrews

Some of the central philosophical concepts of Stoicism were employed by the early Christian writers. Examples include the terms "logos", "virtue", "Spirit", and "conscience". But the parallels go well beyond the sharing and borrowing of terminology. Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity - or "persistent evil" - of humankind, and the futility and 'temporarity' of worldly possessions and attachments. see Ferguson, Everett. Backgrounds of Early Christianity. 2003, page 368.

* Stoic writings such as the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius were highly regarded by many early Christians.

Early Christian philosophers, such as Justin and Athenagoras, attempted to connect Christianity with Platonism; and the Christian Gnostics of Alexandria, especially Valentinus and the followers of Basilides, mirrored elements of Neoplatonism.

 

[Mcreal]

Philo’s allegorical interpretation of Moses as the logos endiathetos and Aaron as the logos prophorikos may have been ultimately inspired by a similar interpretation of another set of brothers, Otus and Ephialtes, preserved in the D-scholium on Iliad 5.385

... the Judeo-Hellenistic writers often drew inspiration from Greek interpreters of Homer. The two sources also share a similar conception of the doctrine of the two logoi, or rather an “applied” use of it that is not particularly common.

... the comparison of the Philonic texts and the scholium makes it possible for us to further illuminate that “applied” use. It relates to paideia, and may involve the idea that the two logoi are to be entrusted to the two disciplines of rhetoric and philosophy. The origin of such an idea could be set within the context of the so-called conflict between rhetoric and philosophy, and might reflect the views of someone who believed in a “brotherly” synergy between those two disciplines.

... a more general evaluation of the allegorical interpretation in the D-scholium involving the two logoi appears to allow the conclusion that it did arise during the age of Aristarchus or just before ...

https://web.duke.edu/classics/grbs/FTexts/44/Kamesar.pdf

 

[Craig B]

I wasn't thinking of Judaism.

I was thinking of "the Gnostic texts, such as the Docetics"; as well as the mystery/pagan religions, and other works of antiquity, such as the 2nd century's Aristides' Sacred Tales and his Orations
.

I think in discussing the historicity of Jesus, and invoking the idea of a pre-existing celestial being Christ, it is necessary to think of Judaism. The sources you cite, or rather enumerate, Philo excepted, are mainly later and reflect ideas which may very well be based on the posthumous apotheosis of Jesus, which is subsequent to the Synoptic gospels.

"Christ", as you know, is the Greek term for a Jewish concept. It is to Judaism that we must look if we are to find belief in a celestial messiah, sacrificed in the heavens, at such an early date. I don't think that we can in fact find any such thing.

 

[Mcreal]

I think in discussing the historicity of Jesus, and invoking the idea of a pre-existing celestial being Christ, it is necessary to think of Judaism. The sources you cite, or rather enumerate, Philo excepted, are mainly later and reflect ideas which may very well be based on the posthumous apotheosis of Jesus, which is subsequent to the Synoptic gospels.

"Christ", as you know, is the Greek term for a Jewish concept. It is to Judaism that we must look if we are to find belief in a celestial messiah, sacrificed in the heavens, at such an early date. I don't think that we can in fact find any such thing.

I don't think the Synoptics were written in the first century, or at least did not exist then as they do in the extant versions we have today. I think there are a lot of 2nd century influences on the NT narrative (and later, as the various Christian councils and their outcomes show).

There were several mystery/pagan religions, particularly those of the Egyptians, that had notions of salvation and salvation through dying-and-rising gods.

Christ may actually be as much an Egyptian concept. There are indications that Serapis was called 'Christ' or 'Chrestus'.

 

[Craig B]

I don't think the Synoptics were written in the first century, or at least did not exist then as they do in the extant versions we have today. I think there are a lot of 2nd century influences on the NT narrative (and later, as the various Christian councils and their outcomes show).

There were several mystery/pagan religions, particularly those of the Egyptians, that had notions of salvation and salvation through dying-and-rising gods.

Christ may actually be as much an Egyptian concept. There are indications that Serapis was called 'Christ' or 'Chrestus'.

This is an improbable source for a messianic Galilean community later establishing itself in Judaea. The elaboration of Christianity in the second century tells us nothing about a possible Jewish cosmic Messiah, such as you propose stands at the source of the later Jesus cult. That supernatural and finally divine Jesus figures arose later is not in doubt. Christ figures may then gave been influenced by Serapis, and Mary figures by Artemis, but so what?

 

[Mcreal]

There were likely many messianic communities.

The elaboration of Christianity in the second century tells us nothing about a possible human Jesus.

That divine & supernatural Christ figures were proposed, before and during the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, is almost certain.

As I said above, I think

"it's likely there was a celestial-being Christ that was later conflated with an obscure preacher (or two)"​

and, it's feasible that person (and his cohorts) was/were preaching later than the early 1st century

 

[Mcreal]

The sources you cite, or rather enumerate, Philo excepted, are mainly later, and reflect ideas which may very well be based on the posthumous apotheosis of Jesus, which is subsequent to the Synoptic gospels.

.
I disagree with the notion of "the posthumous apotheosis of Jesus", and that is not what we were discussing.

I don't believe the Synoptics were finalised in the 1st century.

Aritistides is mid 2nd century (117–181AD/CE), as are i) his contemporary Marcus Aurelius (121-180AD/CE) - his Meditations were highly regarded by many early Christians - and (ii) their teacher Alexander of Cotiaeum (c70/80-150AD/CE)

see Philonic Hermeneutics in the Letter to the Hebrews

Philo’s allegorical interpretation of Moses as the logos endiathetos and Aaron as the logos prophorikos may have been ultimately inspired by a similar interpretation of another set of brothers, Otus and Ephialtes, preserved in the D-scholium on Iliad 5.385

... a more general evaluation of the allegorical interpretation in the D-scholium involving the two logoi appears to allow the conclusion that it did arise during the age of Aristarchus [c.310–c.230BC] or just before ...

https://web.duke.edu/classics/grbs/FTexts/44/Kamesar.pdf

.
Some of the central philosophical concepts of Stoicism were employed by the early Christian writers. Examples include the terms "logos", "virtue", "Spirit", and "conscience". But the parallels go well beyond the sharing and borrowing of terminology. Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity - or "persistent evil" - of humankind, and the futility and 'temporarity' of worldly possessions and attachments.
see Ferguson, Everett. Backgrounds of Early Christianity. 2003, p.368.

 

[Craig B]

.
I disagree with the notion of "the posthumous apotheosis of Jesus", and that is not what we were discussing.

I don't believe the Synoptics were finalised in the 1st century.

But we're discussing the idea of a pre-existing myth of a celestial Christ preceding the formation of a Jewish messianic sect in the first century, in Galilee and then Judaea. So these later sources are not in my view early enough to account for that possibility; and I don't think the celestial messiah is a feature of first century Judaism.

 

[Mcreal]

But we're discussing the idea of a pre-existing myth of a celestial Christ preceding the formation of a Jewish messianic sect in the first century, in Galilee and then Judaea. So these later sources are not in my view early enough to account for that possibility; and I don't think the celestial messiah is a feature of first century Judaism.

I'm not interested in associating a celestial Christ with a Jewish messianic sect, or the formation of one.

I'm not interested in framing propositions for a celestial Christ as "a feature of first century Judaism". I'm thinking wider than Judaism. I'm thinking wider than Galilee and Judea.

I am proposing that any ideas present in the 1st century were later modified.

 

[Craig B]

I'm not interested in associating a celestial Christ with a Jewish messianic sect or the formation of one.

I'm thinking wider than Galilee and Judea.

I'm not interested in framing propositions for a celestial Christ as "a feature of first century Judaism". I'm thinking wider than Judaism.

I am proposing that any ideas present in the 1st century were later modified.

I agree entirely. But that is not helping us answer the questions: did Jesus arise as a deified human being? Or as a humanised celestial entity? Or in some other way? That is what is being discussed, but as regards that question the theological elaboration of subsequent centuries, and in other places in the pagan world, is of no help to us, precisely because, as you say, the early ideas were modified.

 

[dejudge]

.."Christ", as you know, is the Greek term for a Jewish concept. It is to Judaism that we must look if we are to find belief in a celestial messiah, sacrificed in the heavens, at such an early date. I don't think that we can in fact find any such thing.

"Christ" meaning "anointed" is a Greek word and is not really derived from the Jews.

Any person of antiquity that was physically anointed with oil would be called christ wether or not they were jew.

There is simply no evidence at all that the Greek word for 'the anointed' was based on a jewish concept.

The Jews had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the cult called Christians who worshiped the myth/fiction character called Jesus Christ, born of a Ghost and a Transfiguring Water Walker.

We ALREADY know that the Jews EXPECTED their Prophesied Messianic ruler c 70 CE or during the Jewish War against the Romans c 66-70 CE AS STATED by writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

We already know that the Jewish Messanic ruler has NOT yet come according to Jews.

It is clear that Christians of antiquity worshiped a Fiction/Myth character [ as a God falsely claiming that the Fabricated character was the Prophesied Messiah of the Jews.

Jesus Christ, the Lord from heaven, represents a gross mis-representation of Jewish Scripture.

 

[Mcreal]

I agree entirely. But that is not helping us answer the questions: did Jesus arise as a deified human being? Or as a humanised celestial entity? Or in some other way? That is what is being discussed, but as regards that question the theological elaboration of subsequent centuries, and in other places in the pagan world, is of no help to us, precisely because, as you say, the early ideas were modified.

I'm thinking not just theological elaboration. I thinking elaboration of the whole story, including the 'human' elements of it.

 

[Mcreal]

"Christ" meaning "anointed" is a Greek word and is not really derived from the Jews.

and χρηϲτοϲ ('Chrestus'; latin) meant good, or useful. It went from being an adjective to become a name; often for slaves.

Χριστός being Christos / Khristos / kʰriːstós / Xristos

Any person of antiquity that was physically anointed with oil would be called 'Christ' whether or not they were Jew.

Perhaps. It probably depended on where and when. But certainly Kings and High Priests (+/- other authorities) were literally anointed.

 

[dejudge]

This is an improbable source for a messianic Galilean community later establishing itself in Judaea.

You have no evidence for what you say.

There is no evidence what sover of a messianic Galilean community.

All you do is make baseless assumptions and presumptions WITHOUT a shred of contemporary evidence.

..The elaboration of Christianity in the second century tells us nothing about a possible Jewish cosmic Messiah, such as you propose stands at the source of the later Jesus cult. That supernatural and finally divine Jesus figures arose later is not in doubt. Christ figures may then gave been influenced by Serapis, and Mary figures by Artemis, but so what?

So what you ask??

Your statement is void of logic.

It is Christian writings which state Jesus was God Creator.

You cannot show that there was an actual Jewish Messiah in Galilee before Christians claimed Jesus was the Lord from heaven and God Creator.

In the NT, the Jesus was born of a Ghost BEFORE it was claimed he was the Lord from heaven and God Creator.

In effect, Jesus the Ghost preceded the Celestial Jesus.

 

[dejudge]

I agree entirely. But that is not helping us answer the questions: did Jesus arise as a deified human being? Or as a humanised celestial entity? Or in some other way? That is what is being discussed, but as regards that question the theological elaboration of subsequent centuries, and in other places in the pagan world, is of no help to us, precisely because, as you say, the early ideas were modified.

You have nothing to contributed to what is being discussed.

Did Jesus arise as a deified human being?

You cannot and is incapable of present any evidence for YEARS to support YOUR HJ.

The Christian Bible present evidence of mythology and fiction.

The Jesus character in the NT was fabricated AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE OR AFTER the writings of Philo, Pliny the Elder, Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

Your HJ is a modern concept unknown in ALL writings of antiquity.

You claim the Pauline letters were composed c 50-60 CE YET refuse to ADMIT that the Pauline Jesus was a Celestial being, the Lord from heaven and God Creator.

1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV----The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Colossians 1.16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

In addition, it is also claimed Paul preached about HIS LORD FROM HEAVEN and GOD CREATOR SINCE the time of King Aretas c 37-41 CE.

It is fascinating that Craig B seems to have forgotten that he is ACTIVELY arguing that the Pauline Corpus was composed c 50-60 CE and that Paul preached his Celestial Jesus since 37-41 CE.