The Historical Jesus III

Status
Not open for further replies.
If we're talking about independent contemporary historical sources confirming the existence of Jesus, they are practically nil. We start with the gospels, written decades after Jesus' death. Prior to the gospels, I am not aware of any historical references to Jesus (and you'd think that if he was causing dead people to walk around, rising from the dead, and being executed as an enemy of the state, there would be at least some mention, wouldn't you?). Everything else essentially begins with the assumption that the gospels are true, and refers to them as the authority for claiming their own veracity.

For this reason -- lack of credible evidence that he existed -- that many people today claim that such a man never actually existed.

However, I personally think he did exist. Not because of direct evidence, but more simple logic and circumstantial evidence. We have multiple different writers all referring to the same man, and referring to similar events. The fact that many of their accounts actually contradict each other is a strong indication that they did not collaborate with each other. It simply seems rather highly unlikely to me that four different men, without collaborating or communicating with each other, would write four accounts of the same man, claiming that he was real.

My own opinion? Jesus did exist. He was pretty much a nobody, he didn't do much to gain attention at all, he was just one of many self-proclaimed prophets at the time. His fame and influence on our world aren't because of anything he did, but rather due to the growth of a mythology that grew up around him after he died, fed by his followers (who gained status and fame for being associated with such a great man). When things reached the point that the stories about him were actually starting to reap fruit, several of his followers decided to write stories about him to cement the mythology.

To me, this provides a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation for the way the gospels are written. All share the common goal of promoting the idea of Jesus as the Messiah (and thus, since he was dead, granting power and influence to his followers); all share common stories that had developed over time as the mythology grew; and all share significant discrepancies as each had heard (or created) different versions of that mythology.
 
There are several threads in the Forum in which this topic has been discussed literally for years, and the name of Carrier repeatedly invoked. We could transfer this thread to one of these others.

It might be best to study the Carrier - Ehrman dispute on this issue of historicity. Google this up. "carrier ehrman" and you will see plenty of stuff you might want to peruse.

ETA On this issue i am in agreement with what Wolfman has posted.
 
Last edited:
....For this reason -- lack of credible evidence that he existed -- that many people today claim that such a man never actually existed.

However, I personally think he did exist. Not because of direct evidence, but more simple logic and circumstantial evidence. We have multiple different writers all referring to the same man, and referring to similar events. The fact that many of their accounts actually contradict each other is a strong indication that they did not collaborate with each other. It simply seems rather highly unlikely to me that four different men, without collaborating or communicating with each other, would write four accounts of the same man, claiming that he was real.

My own opinion? Jesus did exist. He was pretty much a nobody, he didn't do much to gain attention at all, he was just one of many self-proclaimed prophets at the time. His fame and influence on our world aren't because of anything he did, but rather due to the growth of a mythology that grew up around him after he died, fed by his followers (who gained status and fame for being associated with such a great man). When things reached the point that the stories about him were actually starting to reap fruit, several of his followers decided to write stories about him to cement the mythology.

To me, this provides a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation for the way the gospels are written. All share the common goal of promoting the idea of Jesus as the Messiah (and thus, since he was dead, granting power and influence to his followers); all share common stories that had developed over time as the mythology grew; and all share significant discrepancies as each had heard (or created) different versions of that mythology.


That's pretty much how I viewed it, prior to Carrier's book on the subject. He presents a lot of historical information on the culture and context of the time when Christianity was formed, which seem to make the mythicist position more likely. He presents other examples, both from history, and in relatively modern times, when a religious cult has formed that created it's "savior", and treated him/her as a historical figure, despite them being (in the case of historical myths) clearly recognized as purely mythical, and in more modern examples, clearly provable as purely mythical. (The modern examples are cargo cults)

He also shows that the Jesus story was full of elements commonly circulating in many myths, at the time, and the circumstances of the Jewish people had crucial similarities to situations where more modern people have formed similar purportedly historical "savior" stories.

Further, he's shown (thus far - I'm about half way through as I mentioned) that other figures with the same mythical elements as the Jesus story has, are generally recognized as purely mythical, with no historical figure behind them.

His arguments go a lot deeper that this superficial pick of a couple of salient points. I do recommend picking up the book, and seeing if you find it persuasive.

As to your "multiple different writers" reasoning, there's a LOT of cross contamination between the gospels, with a lot of borrowing from a common source. It is not at all unlikely that it began as a single story, and different writers wrote their own versions of it, emphasizing and seeking support for their own political and religious views - the differences and contradictions are easily explained by the differing opinions and motivations of the writers, and that they weren't planning to have their gospel as a part of a single book with other gospels; they were rather competing to have their gospel be the one.

So I would not count the contradictions in the stories across the gospels as any sort of evidence tilting the probability towards true historicity; rather, I'd see the pattern of similarities and contradictions as a result of them using the same basic story as a source, and writing their version, cross purposes with the other gospel writers.

[edit:]
But as I said, having now become this familiar with only one side of the issue, and am thus not in any good position to evaluate the claims critically, I'd very much like to read a "definitive" defense of historicity. I know of the Ehrman book, and I also know Carrier thought it disappointingly weak; a rather half-hearted attempt.

So I'm wondering if there's anything better than Ehrman. I'll probably read the Ehrman book if no better alternatives are forthcoming.
 
Last edited:
We have multiple different writers all referring to the same man, and referring to similar events. The fact that many of their accounts actually contradict each other is a strong indication that they did not collaborate with each other. It simply seems rather highly unlikely to me that four different men, without collaborating or communicating with each other, would write four accounts of the same man, claiming that he was real.
It is my opinion that in an age of oral tradtion that as single original account could as it spreads round the known world gain and lose elements. Variations arising through translation and other errors and deliberate amendments resulting in 4 different versions of the same original story.

It is highly possible that the original story was a simple tale of a mortal man that had a fantastical elements added in an attempt to gain followers in the busy deity market.
 
That's pretty much how I viewed it, prior to Carrier's book on the subject. He presents a lot of historical information on the culture and context of the time when Christianity was formed, which seem to make the mythicist position more likely. He presents other examples, both from history, and in relatively modern times, when a religious cult has formed that created it's "savior", and treated him/her as a historical figure, despite them being (in the case of historical myths) clearly recognized as purely mythical, and in more modern examples, clearly provable as purely mythical. (The modern examples are cargo cults)
I say again. All this stuff, including the elaborate puffs for Carrier's books, are being ventilated in several other threads, and I see no good cause to open a new one. In fact I have just been discussing that material elsewhere, and would ask you to look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10659667&postcount=91 and the huge masses of other material on this topic in these threads.
ETA See e.g. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290626 passim.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the links Craig B - my main intent with this thread was to find the best counterpoint to Carrier's book. You obviously don't think much of Carrier - do you have a book recommendation for a case FOR historicity? I'd be interested in hearing the other side too, and I'd prefer to read the best - if there is such - defense of the position.

The problem (as always with busy forums) is that the threads get so long and involved, that it takes hours just to catch up on what has been discussed; so it's either spend those hours reading, or take a stab at the subject, and hope what you said/asked isn't something that's been already discussed to death and beyond. I'll check out those links, and get some reading done there...
 
Last edited:
Answer: An immediate death spiral of semantics and hairsplitting.

Santa Clause was based on a real person, but we still don't beat around the bush and avoid calling Santa Clause fictional.
 
It is my opinion that in an age of oral tradtion that as single original account could as it spreads round the known world gain and lose elements. Variations arising through translation and other errors and deliberate amendments resulting in 4 different versions of the same original story.

It is highly possible that the original story was a simple tale of a mortal man that had a fantastical elements added in an attempt to gain followers in the busy deity market.

That's my take on it. I find a simple tale very plausible for the reasons you mention, and in fact more plausible given the lack of evidence.
 
As for cargo cults, John Frum is supposed to have been a real person. When I was younger, there were still a few people who said they knew him back in the 1930s.

Nowadays, he lives in a volcano on the island of Tana, and travels to New York City through a secret tunnel. So a historical person can easily disappear into a pile of superstitious equine waste matter, along with his actual teachings, if any.

Jon Frum 'e come. Bye 'm by blakpella gavman 'e come. Woh! Den witepella 'e go buggerimup pinis plenny too muss!

Keep it up long enough and you have another new testament.
 
And knowing full well that I've now given one side of the argument much more attention than the other, what would you recommend as a book defending historicity, that makes the best case? Is there a definitive defense of the historicity of Jesus, that I could place beside and compare with Carrier's treatise on the subject?

There is no good book defending the "historicity" of Jesus.

Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" is considered probably the very worst argument for an "historical Jesus of Nazareth" according Carrier since it is riddle with logical fallacies and directly dependent on the admitted discredited Christian Bible.

Bart Ehrman in "Did Jesus Exist?" admitted that the NT accounts of Jesus are filled with discrepancies, contradictions, historical problems, forgeries, false attribution and events which most likely did not happen.

The best book for the HJ argument appears to be the Christian Bible since HJers use it as a primary source.

It must be noted that the Christian Bible was used to argue AGAINST an historical Jesus for at least 1800 years.

Christian Churches up to today use the Christian Bible to argue Jesus was GOD.

By the way, Carrier does not recommend Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?".

I actually have a copy of "Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman and it is in fact the very worse argument for an historical Jesus.

I want to get a refund.
 
Thanks for the links Craig B - my main intent with this thread was to find the best counterpoint to Carrier's book. You obviously don't think much of Carrier - do you have a book recommendation for a case FOR historicity? I'd be interested in hearing the other side too, and I'd prefer to read the best - if there is such - defense of the position.

The problem (as always with busy forums) is that the threads get so long and involved, that it takes hours just to catch up on what has been discussed; so it's either spend those hours reading, or take a stab at the subject, and hope what you said/asked isn't something that's been already discussed to death and beyond. I'll check out those links, and get some reading done there...
I think it's utterly nonsensical to start yet another thread to puff Carrier. There's plenty of opportunity to do that on the other threads. If you don't catch up with what has been discussed we will need to go through it all again. What for?

And now dejudge has turned up! Read his posts in the other threads if you want to. I appeal to any mods who read this, to consider merger.
 
Even after becoming an atheist (long ago), I have always just assumed that there was pretty solid evidence for there having been some historical man named Jesus, who might have taught some of the things the Biblical Jesus taught, and around whom the legend grew.

I always thought the mythicist position was of the "Zeitgeist" variety, with rather dubious, low quality claims.

The idea that people would have written such an influential personal history of a figure, inventing the whole of it, rather than it having SOME basis in a historical, real person, seemed to me to be just an unnecessary complication.

Didn't place that much importance on the question of historicity of Jesus either, so wasn't that interested, until recently, having heard historicity discussed on Dogma Debate.

I picked up "On the Historicity of Jesus" by Richard Carrier, which, I gathered, by the reviews, was the best case available for the mythicist position, and I'm currently reading it (or listening, as I got it as an audio book). I'm about half way through, and I do have to say that I think I'm having my mind changed. Carrier makes some extremely powerful arguments. It reads like a well researched, non-sensational, very analytical, proper history.

What I'm interested is if anyone has read the book, and is more deeply learned in the issues surrounding historicity, what's your take?

And knowing full well that I've now given one side of the argument much more attention than the other, what would you recommend as a book defending historicity, that makes the best case? Is there a definitive defense of the historicity of Jesus, that I could place beside and compare with Carrier's treatise on the subject?

I think the most honest answer is "Might have been some dude who was the basis for the story, but we don't know."
 
I think the most honest answer is "Might have been some dude who was the basis for the story, but we don't know."

I'm sorry, Belz..., but this is an altogether too reasonable position.
 
I'm sorry, Belz..., but this is an altogether too reasonable position.
It is very reasonable, vastly more reasonable than Carrier's theses, and it has been stated and restated in the several threads we already have on this topic.
 
It is very reasonable, vastly more reasonable than Carrier's theses, and it has been stated and restated in the several threads we already have on this topic.

And shouted down by both sides with names like MYTHER!!!!11!!! or CLOSET CHRISTIAN!!!!11!!!
 
It is most amusing that people who argue for an historical Jesus appear to have no interest in exposing their "best" books with arguments for a historical Jesus.

This thread is not about the existence/non-existence of Jesus but attempting to get books about the arguments for and against historicity.

It would seem to me that the best book for the HJ argument is the Christian Bible.

Bart Ehrman in "Did Jesus Exist?" page 36 actually stated that "....the Bible is a great book or set of books".
 
Answer: An immediate death spiral of semantics and hairsplitting.

Santa Clause was based on a real person, but we still don't beat around the bush and avoid calling Santa Clause fictional.

Same for Dorothy of the Wizard of Oz.
 
Do we need TWO threads, at least, where dejudge can post identical material? The poor person. Doubling his workload will do him a mischief. Merge this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom