The Historical Jesus III

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originally posted by Mcreal
An historic Jesus is as likely to be a 2nd C preacher as the current 1st C proposition (or even a 3rd C preacher).
Why? Paul, Mark, the Synoptic Sayings, all contain evidence, or are associated with evidence, of first century composition.
"evidence of first century composition"? That they did not refer to later events does not negate the proposition they were written later.

Once you remove the NT, you are left only with Josephus, for Suetonius and Tacitus must have derived their information, such as it is, from Christian sources. And Josephus is, with good reason, heavily suspected of being interpolated.
Suetonius refers to a 'Chrestus'. Tacitus refered to a non-Jesus cult of Chrestians (or could be an interpolation). Likewise, we don't know who the 'Christians' that Pliny-the_Younger was referring to (some say Pliny also wrote about Chrestians). Suetonius, Tacitus, & Pliny-the_Younger were early 1st-century contemporaries of Hadrian who wrote about Christians worshiping Serapis.
 
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"evidence of first century composition"? That they did not refer to later events does not negate the proposition they were written later.
But that they do refer to earlier events - and situations, like an extant temple - IS evidence that they were written earlier.
Suetonius refers to a 'Chrestus'. Tacitus refered to a non-Jesus cult of Chrestians; or be an interpolation. Likewise, we don't know who the 'Christians' that Pliny-the_Younger was referring to (some say Pliny also wrote about Chrestians). Suetonius, Tacitus, & Pliny-the_Younger were early 1st-century contemporaries of Hadrian who wrote about Christians worshiping Serapis.
You are here concerned to dismiss all evidence. Apart from the "Chrestus" the passages in question suggest the existence of Christian communities at the turn of the second century. Pliny even earlier, as he mentions former Christians. The Chrestus is likely to be Suetonius' rendition of a still unfamiliar expression. In the passages in question there is no mention of Serapis.
 
GDon said:
But again that misses the point!

Look: Do you agree that there are nutty Christ Myth conspiracy theories out there (like detailed in Acharya S's 'The Christ Conspiracy') or not?
And there are nutty Pro historical Jesus theories out there. The one where the Gospels are seen as true history miracles and all prime example of that. How about Jesus the spaceman? :boggled:
Exactly. Weird conspiracy theories are out there! But we are not surprised. Because there is even weirder ones out there, like Holocaust denial, Moon Landing hoax and Obama Birther.
 
Kelhoffer, James A (2000) Miracle and Mission. The Authentication of Missionaries and Their Message in the Longer Ending of Mark Mohr Siebeck. 530 pages. WUNT II 112. ISBN-10: 3161472438 ISBN-13: 978-3161472435

The Longer Ending of the Gospel of Mark (Mark 16:9-20) was appended to the Gospel of Mark in the first half of the second century. James A. Kelhoffer explores this passage's distinct witness to the use of gospel traditions and the development of Christian thought. Concerning the origin of this passage, he argues that a single author made use of the New Testament Gospels in forging a more satisfactory ending to Mark. He studies the passage's sometimes innovative literary forms as well. Also of interest is the passage's claim that the ascended Lord will help "those who believe" to perform miraculous signs - casting out demons, speaking in new languages, picking up snakes, drinking poison with impunity and healing the sick - when they preach the gospel (verses 17-18, 20). This expectation is compared with portraits of miracles, especially in the context of mission, in the New Testament, various apocryphal acts and Christian apologists of the second and third centuries. In the two final chapters the author interprets the signs of picking up snakes (verse 18a) and drinking a deadly substance with impunity (verse 18b) in their history of religions contexts. An Epilogue summarizes the findings of this study and explores what can be ascertained about the otherwise unknown Christian author of Mark 16:9-20.​
http://www.mohr.de/en/nc/theology/series/detail/buch/miracle-and-mission.html
 
And there are nutty Pro historical Jesus theories out there. The one where the Gospels are seen as true history miracles and all prime example of that. How about Jesus the spaceman? :boggled:

It is only in the last 200 some years that the Jesus story stepped out of "EVERYTHING IN THE GOSPELS IS TRUE" mindset and is still to some degree trying to hammer out a history that is on Planet Reality.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. "Jesus was a spaceman" is a non-supernatural Jesus; but he is most certainly not a historical Jesus, as there is no evidence whatever for such a bizarre hypothesis. "Alexander was the son of Zeus" is a supernatural Alexander, but that doesn't mean "Alexander was a spaceman" is a historical Alexander. "Alexander was the son of King Philip of Macedon" is both non-supernatural and historical; the latter because there is evidence for it which is good enough to be taken seriously by historians
 
... Apart from the "Chrestus" the passages in question suggest the existence of Christian communities at the turn of the second century.
Annals 15.44 referred to Chrestians; and that is well testified.

The Chrestus is likely to be Suetonius' rendition of a still unfamiliar expression.
There were many other references to Chrestus in antiquity; it is more than a rendition. Chrestus has a different etymology to Christos.

In the passages in question there is no mention of Serapis.

Hadrian in a letter to Servianus, 134AD
"Egypt that you have commanded to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of flame. The worshippers of G-d Serapis are called Christians, and those who are devoted to G-d Serapis call themselves Bishops of Christ”​
It is attested that 'Vopiscus' in the 3rd century transcribed this letter from the works of 'Phlegon', a freed man of Hadrian, and inserted it in 'the life of Saturninus' [Vita Saturnini 8]. DH Tscirhner and Bishop Dr J G Lightfoot, among others, think Hadrian's letter is genuine.
 
No, it is not an equating arguments at all. That's twisting what Ehrman was doing. He claimed that in a time of conspiracy theorists on Holocaust denial, Moon Landing hoaxes and Obama Birthers, it isn't surprising to have conspiracy theories like Christ Mythicism. To call such a statement 'immoral' is ridiculous. While Ehrman explains that there are a small handful of mythicists who should be taken seriously, like Doherty, Price and Carrier, he recognizes that most Christ Mythicist theories are conspiracy theories.

Need I remind you that probably the most popular Christ Myth book is Acharya S's "The Christ Conspiracy"? The one that claims the Pope is the Grand Master of the Freemasons and who knows that there was no historical Jesus but keeps it hidden? And that the movie "Zeitgeist" has had millions of views and is often referenced by Christ Mythicists?

Need I remind you that you are debating real people here and not books and movies?

Attributing to posters here some "myther" point of view then debating that is a straw man.
 
Annals 15.44 referred to Chrestians; and that is well testified.
Or if not, it is a forgery or interpolation. As if a fifteenth century Christian fabricator would insert "Chrestus" and not "Christus" into a falsification!
There were many other references to Chrestus in antiquity; it is more than a rendition. Chrestus has a different etymology to Christos.
Yes, as a personal name it has been found about two hundred times in first century Roman inscriptions, on tombstones and the like. What that has to do with the argument isn't clear to me. As a name it would have been familiar to Suetonius.

I am now going to start a serious examination of the Hadrian-Servianus letter which is bandied about in various forms. We will need to look closely at the text, and I appeal to any classical scholars here for help.

Here is how a contributor to wiki renders, and comments on, the text. I am going to state that the context and subject matter - fickleness of Egyptian thought - absolutely demands the reading it receives in this source. Here, by contrast, is your version.
Egypt that you have commanded to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of flame. The worshippers of G-d Serapis are called Christians, and those who are devoted to G-d Serapis call themselves Bishops of Christ.

I have very serious problems with that.
What feature of the original, of which you quote a translation, incites you to use the expression "G-d"?
Why do you stop at that point? Did your source do so? We are left with the impression that Christ and Serapis are the same object of worship, and worshippers of Christ and Serapis are the same people. Does the letter, when read more fully, justify that inference?

Let us now read the wiki version. My bold.
From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. [The letter continues on to non-religious matters.]
The bolded sentence makes clear that S and C are regarded as separate beings, and that H is deriding the inconstancy of the Egyptians in switching from one to another. That is exactly what H says he is talking about, of course. This is followed by the comments I now quote.
It seems fairly clear to me that the letter's claim is that the Egyptians were involved in practices inconsistent with the religions they claimed; "Serapis-worshippers" worshipping Christ, "bishops of Christ" worshipping Serapis, and "Jews", "Samaritans" and "Christians" involved in astrology, etc. Note that the author of the History is using the letter as evidence for his claims about the character of Egyptians. However, the article has been citing the letter in connection with the following statement: "Followers of Serapis were called Christians as demonstrated in a letter from Emperor Hadrian to Servianus, 134. (Quoted by Giles, ii p86)" I interpreted this as meaning that worship of Serapis was sufficient for someone to be called a "Christian" (rather than merely that some people called themselves Christians and also worshipped Serapis).
Further problems with this statement were (a) that it assumed the authenticity of the letter's ascription to Hadrian, although the Historia Augusta is regarded as containing many forged sources (see its entry); and (b) that it contained an incomplete citation. I've left the quotation in the article this time, citing an online translation for it, but I've edited the introductory sentence, as it seems to me that this was problematic ... EALacey15:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

If any of this is true, than the Serapis = Jesus identification much touted by the Mythicists is based on a plain mistreating of a fragment of the text, and the concealment of another part of it. More: the subject of that section of the letter is precisely that Egyptians, whatever their professed religion, switch from one object of worship to a different one, which completely invalidates the mythicists' use of this source.

May I have comments on this from you, or from any reader who feels able to cast more light on it?

ETA tsig, I see you got there first with the observation about "G-d".
 
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Exactly. Weird conspiracy theories are out there! But we are not surprised. Because there is even weirder ones out there, like Holocaust denial, Moon Landing hoax and Obama Birther.

Again, you post absurdities and irrelevant propaganda. No-one here denies the Holocaust.

The Holocaust is documented.

You as a Christian believe the Bible is an historical source when it is DOCUMENTED to be riddled with fiction, mythology, discrepancies, contradictions, forgeries, false attribution and events which did not and could not have happened.

You are in DENIAL.

Jesus is DOCUMENTED as the Son of a Ghost, God Creator, the Lord from heaven and God of God.

Jesus of Nazareth is DOCUMENTED as a Myth/fiction character in the very BIBLE that you believe.

Matthew 1:18---- Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

An historical Jesus [a man with a human father] is just a CONSPIRACY theory.
 
Again, you post absurdities and irrelevant propaganda. No-one here denies the Holocaust.

The Holocaust is documented.

You as a Christian believe the Bible is an historical source when it is DOCUMENTED to be riddled with fiction, mythology, discrepancies, contradictions, forgeries, false attribution and events which did not and could not have happened.

You are in DENIAL.

Jesus is DOCUMENTED as the Son of a Ghost, God Creator, the Lord from heaven and God of God.

Jesus of Nazareth is DOCUMENTED as a Myth/fiction character in the very BIBLE that you believe.

Matthew 1:18---- Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

An historical Jesus [a man with a human father] is just a CONSPIRACY theory.
dejudge, I don't like criticising you, but there is an element of, let me say, repetitiveness in your contributions.

Can you not see that, leaving accusations of "propaganda" aside, other people have arguments which address the issues you have stated hundreds of times here? What would be useful would be if you could address some of these rather then merely call people propagandists, and now even conspiracy theorists.

On that point, it seems to me that you are the biggest CT exponent here, as you believe the whole of Christian scripture to have been concocted for purposes of deceit, by gangs of forgers. That sounds like a CONSPIRACY theory to me, dejudge.
 
The HJ argument is just a farce.

The supposed HJ was not anointed [christos] and NOT Good [Chrestos].

The supposed HJ was a criminal/rebel who was killed by Romans.

It is already known and established that the mention of the Christians or Chrestians does NOT help to show that there was an OBSCURE character called Jesus who was killed by the Romans because he was a rebel/criminal/rabbi/preacher/prophet.

It has already been shown that there were people called Christians or Chrestians who did NOT believe the Jesus stories.

See Dialogue with Trypho" attributed to Justin, "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus, and "Refutation of All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus.

In addition, the very Christian Bible was used to argue that an historical Jesus [a mere man with a human] was a lie.

Please, stop wasting time.

Non-apologetic sources do not identify any character called Jesus of Nazareth.

Many Jews were called Anointed [Christus] for hundreds of years.

The God of the Jews was called Good [Chrestus] for hundreds of years.

The Jews do not look for their [anointed] Christus in graveyards.

A dead Jew could NOT be given the title Anointed [Christus]

Jesus of Nazareth was ALWAYS a myth/fiction character.
 
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dejudge, I don't like criticising you, but there is an element of, let me say, repetitiveness in your contributions.

Can you not see that, leaving accusations of "propaganda" aside, other people have arguments which address the issues you have stated hundreds of times here? What would be useful would be if you could address some of these rather then merely call people propagandists, and now even conspiracy theorists.

On that point, it seems to me that you are the biggest CT exponent here, as you believe the whole of Christian scripture to have been concocted for purposes of deceit, by gangs of forgers. That sounds like a CONSPIRACY theory to me, dejudge.

What penultimate amazing nonsense you post Craig B!!!

For years now, you repeat the absurd claims that Jesus was a man with a human father in the Christian Bible when in fact the Christian Bible was used to do the very opposite.

The Christian Canon was used in antiquity to ARGUE AGAINST those who claim that Jesus was a man with a human father.

See gMark, gMatthew, gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline Corpus, the non-Pauline Epistles, Against Heresies attributed to Irenaeus, "Refutation of All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus and the 381 Creed of the Church.

Why are you repeatedly using the writings of the Holy Mother Church as evidence of an historical Jesus when you know that the Holy Mother Church admitted their Jesus was God of God?

How much longer can you continue to repeat the same absurd HJ argument??

An HJ was the product of lies according to the people who canonised or produced the NT.
 
Hadrian in a letter to Servianus, 134AD
"Egypt that you have commanded to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of flame. The worshippers of G-d Serapis are called Christians, and those who are devoted to G-d Serapis call themselves Bishops of Christ”​
It is attested that 'Vopiscus' in the 3rd century transcribed this letter from the works of 'Phlegon', a freed man of Hadrian, and inserted it in 'the life of Saturninus' [Vita Saturnini 8]. DH Tscirhner and Bishop Dr J G Lightfoot, among others, think Hadrian's letter is genuine.

Actually the Hadrian letter to Servianus reads as follows:

"Those who worship Serapis are the Chrestians, and those who call themselves priests of Chrestus are devoted to Serapis. There is not a high-priest of the Jews, a Samaritan, or a priest of Chrestus who is not a mathematician, soothsayer, or quack. Even the patriarch, when he goes to Egypt, is compelled by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Chrestus. They are a turbulent, inflated, lawless body of men.
They have only one God, who is worshipped by the Chrestians, the Jews, and all the peoples of Egypt."

But here is the way the pro Historical Jesus supporters render this passage (since at least 1838 if not further back):

"Those who worship Serapis are the Christians, and those who call themselves priests of Christ are devoted to Serapis. There is not a high-priest of the Jews, a Samaritan, or a priest of Christ who is not a mathematician, soothsayer, or quack. Even the patriarch, when he goes to Egypt, is compelled by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. They are a turbulent, inflated, lawless body of men. They have only one God, who is worshipped by the Christians, the Jews, and all the peoples of Egypt."

Presto-chango you have another piece of "evidence" for Jesus :hb:

I should note that last line is key because Serapis goes back to the 3rd century BCE ("Sarapis" in The New Encyclopaedia Britannica. Chicago: Encyclopaedia Britannica Inc., 15th edn., 1992, Vol. 10, p. 447.) and that last line clearly indicates that Serapis IS Chrestus (Christ)...otherwise the Christians, the Jews, and all the peoples of Egypt would worship MORE then ONE God.
 
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What penultimate amazing nonsense you post Craig B!!!
Why "penultimate"?
For years now, you repeat the absurd claims that Jesus was a man with a human father in the Christian Bible when in fact the Christian Bible was used to do the very opposite.
It is used by Christians to do that. I am not a Christian.
The Christian Canon was used in antiquity to ARGUE AGAINST those who claim that Jesus was a man with a human father.
It is used by Christians to do that. I am not a Christian.
See gMark, gMatthew, gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline Corpus, the non-Pauline Epistles, Against Heresies attributed to Irenaeus, "Refutation of All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus and the 381 Creed of the Church.
It is used by Christians to do that. I am not a Christian.
Why are you repeatedly using the writings of the Holy Mother Church as evidence of an historical Jesus when you know that the Holy Mother Church admitted their Jesus was God of God?
They asserted (falsely) that Jesus was the son of God. Holy Mother Church did not write Paul or Mark or the Synoptic Sayings. I am not a Christian, and do not agree with what they say.
An HJ was the product of lies according to the people who canonised or produced the NT.
Christians say that. I am not a Christian.
 
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