The Historical Jesus II

[maximara]

But Paul was talking about the recent past.

And the natives of the various Cargo Cults also talk about their actual physical meeting with their cults founders in the recent past.

"Chief Isaac and other local leaders say that John Frum first appeared one night in the late 1930s, after a group of elders had downed many shells of kava as a prelude to receiving messages from the spirit world." Paul Raffaele "In John They Trust" Smithsonian Magazine February 2006

The stories regarding Ned Ludd were also in the the recent past (about 40 years previously)

He says he met the Lord's brother.

And various natives state that have physical met John Frum himself. Some even say they talk to him via there radios (made out of bamboo and straw) regularly.

He mentions this meeting as part of his credentials to preach what he is preaching to his audience.

Actually Paul mentions it in passing ONCE. Also note what else Paul says:

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me" - Corinthians 15:3–8

Five hundred brothers...Jesus must have had a really big family.

The Jesus that Paul is talking about wasn't a character from the age of Heroes long ago, but a man of the recent past whose contemporaries were still alive

The same is/was true of John Frum and Ned Ludd.

And what about all the eyewitnesses to Spring Healed Jack? They were recorded mere days after they supposedly happened

Are we to suppose there was some creature running around in19th century who could clear 10 foot tall buildings in a single jump...wait a minute. Able to leap buildings in a single bound? Now where? Oh yeh Superman. Oh and he breathed fire and had red glowing eyes.

Your point?

 

[dejudge]

But Paul was talking about the recent past. He says he met the Lord's brother. He mentions this meeting as part of his credentials to preach what he is preaching to his audience. His audience already know about James and his title and his pre-eminence in their Church, that's why Paul says he met James and had his blessing to teach what he does.

Again, you repeat the same fallacies.

Even the Lord Jesus denied he was the brother of James in Christian writings.

Galatians 1.19 is evidence that the Pauline Corpus is not credible.

Virtually every Christian writer DENIED that James the Apostle was the brother of the Lord Jesus from heaven.

It is just mind boggling that people in the 21st century are making blatant fallacious claims about the Pauline Corpus when we have HUNDREDS of writings from antiquity which explain the teachings of the Pauline Corpus and the ENTIRE NT Canon.

We have hundreds of writings which state that the Pauline Jesus was God of God yet two modern "Heretics" are here making all sorts of ridiculous claims about the NT.

How long can we continue with their nonsense?

It is the statement from antiquity that matters--not the imagination of "modern heretics".

What did Tertullian write about the Pauline Jesus?

What Origen write about the Pauline Jesus?

What did Irenaeus write about the Pauline Jesus?

They all claimed the Pauline Jesus is the same Jesus that was born of a Ghost and God from the beginning.

 

[Craig B]

And the natives of the various Cargo Cults also talk about their actual physical meeting with their cults founders in the recent past ... The stories regarding Ned Ludd were also in the the recent past (about 40 years previously) ... And various natives state that have physical met John Frum himself. Some even say they talk to him via there radios (made out of bamboo and straw) regularly.

The same is/was true of John Frum and Ned Ludd. Your point?

That various "natives" really believe in the recent physical existence of John Frum, just as Paul (contra the infallible Carrier) believed in the recent physical existence of Jesus.

 

[Brainache]

Which is why I compare them to Sheff's ramblings as those had the same four problems.

As I have said before I could at least understand the drive to claim Paul was fictional if he actually brought something to the historical Jesus table but he doesn't.

Paul's Jesus is this visionary being with any earthly actions also being visions.

These supposedly earthly events Paul relates have no more relevance to Jesus being an "earthly" (ie historical) person then any of the stories involving pagan celestial beings that supposedly happened on earth.

But they do clearly contradict what Carrier is saying about Paul's Jesus as a celestial being who lived and died up in the sky somewhere. Paul says Jesus was a descendant of King David, born under the law who ate and drank and talked with his followers down here on earth.

So if you want to argue that the earliest Christians believed in a Celestial Myth Jesus, you have to ignore what is in Paul's letters about the man Jesus.

Is this the kind of thing a disembodied spirit does?:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 7&version=KJ21

...And unto the married I command (yet not I, but the Lord): let not the wife depart from her husband.
11 But if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And let not the husband put away his wife.

This purely spirit being of revelation and ancient scripture is telling people not to get divorced? According to Jewish scripture, divorce is OK as long as the Husband agrees, apparently Jesus taught otherwise and Paul didn't entirely agree with him:

...
But to the rest I speak (not the Lord): if any brother hath a wife who believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman who hath a husband who believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband. Else your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
15 But if the unbelieving spouse depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases, for God hath called us to peace...

 

[Craig B]

Again, you repeat the same fallacies ... We have hundreds of writings which state that the Pauline Jesus was God of God yet two modern "Heretics" are here making all sorts of ridiculous claims about the NT.

What did Tertullian write about the Pauline Jesus?

Tertullian's works are not in the NT, and are not part of the Pauline Corpus.

What Origen write about the Pauline Jesus?

Origen's works are not in the NT, and are not part of the Pauline Corpus.

What did Irenaeus write about the Pauline Jesus?

Irenaeus' works are not in the NT, and are not part of the Pauline Corpus.

They all claimed the Pauline Jesus is the same Jesus that was born of a Ghost and God from the beginning.

None of their works is in the NT, and they are not part of the Pauline Corpus.

 

[Brainache]

...

Actually Paul mentions it in passing ONCE. Also note what else Paul says:

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me" - Corinthians 15:3–8
...

I was referring to this in Galatians:

13 You know how I used to live as a Jew. I was cruel to God’s church and even tried to destroy it. 14 I was a much better Jew than anyone else my own age, and I obeyed every law that our ancestors had given us. 15 But even before I was born, God had chosen me. He was kind and had decided 16 to show me his Son, so that I would announce his message to the Gentiles. I didn’t talk this over with anyone. 17 I didn’t say a word, not even to the men in Jerusalem who were apostles before I was. Instead, I went at once to Arabia, and afterwards I returned to Damascus.

18 Three years later I went to visit Peter in Jerusalem and stayed with him for fifteen days. 19 The only other apostle I saw was James, the Lord’s brother. 20 And in the presence of God I swear I am telling the truth.

21 Later, I went to the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 But no one who belonged to Christ’s churches in Judea had ever seen me in person. 23 They had only heard that the one who had been cruel to them was now preaching the message that he had once tried to destroy. 24 And because of me, they praised God.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 1&version=CEV

He swears he met James the Lord's brother. Whether he did or not, his audience are aware of this James person and his position in the Jerusalem hierarchy.

 

[dejudge]

...Thus, whether Paul was right or wrong in making that assumption the fact that he did manifestly make it refutes Carrier's prime thesis, namely that, as above Paul considered him to have been a real person, elevated after death to a heavenly status, and in that state known through revelation; and Paul expresses that belief whether the belief is right or wrong in Romans 1.

People of antiquity also believe God and the Holy Ghost were actual real persons.

People of antiquity also believed Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Satan and the Angel Gabriel were real figures of history.

Again, you mis-represent the teachings of the NT.

Jesus of the NT was God Incarnate.

We have hundreds of writings from antiquity from since at least the 2nd century which fully explain the nature of the Pauline Jesus.

Your modern Heretical teachings are completely useless.

We are actually investigating what people of ANTIQUITY wrote and argued about--NOT what 21st century modern heretics have recently invented.


What did Augustine of Hippo write about the Pauline Jesus?

What did Jerome write about the Pauline Jesus?

They claimed that the Pauline Jesus was the same Jesus that was born of a Ghost and was God of God.

 

[dejudge]

Tertullian's works are not in the NT, and are not part of the Pauline Corpus. Origen's works are not in the NT, and are not part of the Pauline Corpus. Irenaeus' works are not in the NT, and are not part of the Pauline Corpus.None of their works is in the NT, and they are not part of the Pauline Corpus.

Your fallacious claims that Paul was an Auditory Hallucinator is NOT in the NT and is NOT part of the Pauline Corpus.

Your fallacious claim that letters of the Pauline Corpus was composed c 50-60 CE is NOT in the NT and is NOT part of the Pauline Corpus.

The Pauline writer claimed he was a WITNESS that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus was the Lord from heaven in the NT and is part of the Pauline Corpus.

 

[Craig B]

I was referring to this in Galatians:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 1&version=CEV

He swears he met James the Lord's brother. Whether he did or not, his audience are aware of this James person and his position in the Jerusalem hierarchy.

Evidently he is at the top of the hierarchy too, and is able to lay down the law to Paul and to the Gentiles, as head of the ruling committee

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present ... 20 ... they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Big boss. And James and his followers are zealous of the Law. We know that Paul is far from being anything of the sort, but he does as James bids him.

 

[dejudge]

...He swears he met James the Lord's brother. Whether he did or not, his audience are aware of this James person and his position in the Jerusalem hierarchy.

What a logically fallacious argument!!!

The existence of James cannot help the argument that Jesus existed.

You are using 2nd century or later manuscripts which cannot support your assumptions.

Please identify the manuscripts you are using for "this James person"?

Don't tell me it is the Bible--a major source of fiction, false attribution, contradictions, discrepancies, historical problems and events which did not and could not have happened.

What did Chrysostom write about James the Apostle in Galatians ?

What did Origen write about James the Apostle in Galatians?

They claimed James the Apostle was NOT the brother of Jesus the Lord from heaven.

You are just a modern Heretic.

Jesus of the NT was God of God--Not man of man.

 

[Craig B]

Your fallacious claims that Paul was an Auditory Hallucinator is NOT in the NT and is NOT part of the Pauline Corpus.

That's right, dejudge. Paul and his followers didn't say, our entire religion is based on a hallucination experienced by a madman having an epileptic seizure. Agreed; they didn't write that anywhere. Possibly because that's not what they believed.

Your fallacious claim that letters of the Pauline Corpus was composed c 50-60 CE is NOT in the NT and is NOT part of the Pauline Corpus.

But the claim to have been in Damascus during the reign of Aretas is there, dejudge. You seem to have a problem with this. It specifies the date of the Auditory Hallucination as in or before 40 CE. I'm happy to write that down a million more times, dejudge, if you require it of me, as seems to be the case.

The Pauline writer claimed he was a WITNESS that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus was the Lord from heaven in the NT and is part of the Pauline Corpus.

It is, dejudge. The claim is that God raised a previously physical living Jesus from the dead. Following that event, other previously physical human people would rise from the dead. Jesus was the first, then other people would follow, and the ones still alive when Jesus came back, as Paul expected to be, would rise up to meet Jesus in the air. That's what it says in the Pauline Corpus.

 

[Brainache]

What a logically fallacious argument!!!

The existence of James cannot help the argument that Jesus existed.

You are using 2nd century or later manuscripts which cannot support your assumptions.

Please identify the manuscripts you are using for "this James person"?

Don't tell me it is the Bible--a major source of fiction, false attribution, contradictions, discrepancies, historical problems and events which did not and could not have happened.

What did Chrysostom write about James the Apostle in Galatians ?

What did Origen write about James the Apostle in Galatians?

They claimed James the Apostle was NOT the brother of Jesus the Lord from heaven.

You are just a modern Heretic.

Jesus of the NT was God of God--Not man of man.

Did Chrysostom or Origen meet James? How would they know James' relationship to Jesus? They lived a long time after him and a long way away, unlike Paul.

Here he is again talking about that James person:

Fourteen years later I went to Jerusalem with Barnabas. I also took along Titus. 2 But I went there because God had told me to go, and I explained the good news that I had been preaching to the Gentiles. Then I met privately with the ones who seemed to be the most important leaders. I wanted to make sure that my work in the past and my future work would not be for nothing.

3 Titus went to Jerusalem with me. He was a Greek, but still he wasn’t forced to be circumcised. 4 We went there because of those who pretended to be followers and had sneaked in among us as spies. They had come to take away the freedom that Christ Jesus had given us, and they were trying to make us their slaves. 5 But we wanted you to have the true message. That’s why we didn’t give in to them, not even for a second.

6 Some of them were supposed to be important leaders, but I didn’t care who they were. God doesn’t have any favorites! None of these so-called special leaders added anything to my message. 7 They realized that God had sent me with the good news for Gentiles, and that he had sent Peter with the same message for Jews. 8 God, who had sent Peter on a mission to the Jews, was now using me to preach to the Gentiles.

9 James, Peter, [a] and John realized that God had given me the message about his undeserved kindness. And these men are supposed to be the backbone of the church. They even gave Barnabas and me a friendly handshake. This was to show that we would work with Gentiles and that they would work with Jews. 10 They only asked us to remember the poor, and that was something I had always been eager to do...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 2&version=CEV

Then he has a go at Peter:

When Peter came to Antioch, I told him face to face that he was wrong. 12 He used to eat with Gentile followers of the Lord, until James sent some Jewish followers. Peter was afraid of the Jews and soon stopped eating with Gentiles. 13 He and the other Jews hid their true feelings so well that even Barnabas was fooled. 14 But when I saw that they were not really obeying the truth that is in the good news, I corrected Peter in front of everyone and said:

Peter, you are a Jew, but you live like a Gentile. So how can you force Gentiles to live like Jews?

15 We are Jews by birth and are not sinners like Gentiles. 16 But we know that God accepts only those who have faith in Jesus Christ. No one can please God by simply obeying the Law. So we put our faith in Christ Jesus, and God accepted us because of our faith.

17 When we Jews started looking for a way to please God, we discovered that we are sinners too. Does this mean that Christ is the one who makes us sinners? No, it doesn’t! 18 But if I tear down something and then build it again, I prove that I was wrong at first. 19 It was the Law itself that killed me and freed me from its power, so that I could live for God.

I have been nailed to the cross with Christ. 20 I have died, but Christ lives in me. And I now live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me. 21 I don’t turn my back on God’s undeserved kindness. If we can be acceptable to God by obeying the Law, it was useless for Christ to die.

There he is being the exact opposite of "Zealous of the Law"...

 

[maximara]

But they do clearly contradict what Carrier is saying about Paul's Jesus as a celestial being who lived and died up in the sky somewhere.

No it does not. See "historical Jesus - Richard Carrier" regarding Savior Gods:

"They all have stories about them set in human history on earth"

"This means Paul hallucinated the last supper, and thus received teachings from the dead Jesus (even quotes him)" (sic)

Paul says Jesus was a descendant of King David, born under the law who ate and drank and talked with his followers down here on earth.

And some followers of John Frum say he is the biological brother of a man who only has sisters. Your point?

So if you want to argue that the earliest Christians believed in a Celestial Myth Jesus, you have to ignore what is in Paul's letters about the man Jesus.

Is this the kind of thing a disembodied spirit does?:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 7&version=KJ21

This purely spirit being of revelation and ancient scripture is telling people not to get divorced? According to Jewish scripture, divorce is OK as long as the Husband agrees, apparently Jesus taught otherwise and Paul didn't entirely agree with him:

Prophet Fred was trying to take the John Frum movement in his own direction as well in 2006: " The American messiah is little more than a figurehead in Fred’s version, which bans the display of foreign flags, including Old Glory, and forbids any talk of cargo."

None of this means John Frum existed. Just means that Paul was trying to push the movement in particular direction.

Chief Isaac: “John Frum came to help us get back our traditional customs, our kava drinking, our dancing, because the missionaries and colonial government were deliberately destroying our culture,” Chief Isaac says, his pidgin English translated by Daniel.

Paul Raffaele: “But if John Frum, an American, is going to bring you modern goods, how does that sit with his wish that you lead a kastom life?” I ask.

Chief Isaac: “John is a spirit. He knows everything,” the chief says, slipping past the contradiction with the poise of a skilled politician. “He’s even more powerful than Jesus.”

Paul Raffaele: “Have you ever seen him?”
“Yes, John comes very often from Yasur to advise me, or I go there to speak with John.”

Now this is shortly before the Smithsonian article was published in 2006.

Here we have a man stating that John Frum and himself often talk to each other on Earth. But John Frum supposedly appeared in the 1930s or about 70 years previously (let's ignore that variant that has him in the 1910s for the moment) and yet he is still appearing to the faithful all these years later.

 

[Craig B]

What did Chrysostom write about James the Apostle in Galatians ?

What did Origen write about James the Apostle in Galatians?

They claimed James the Apostle was NOT the brother of Jesus the Lord from heaven.

You are just a modern Heretic.

I am interested to learn that you are now a devout Christian offering hyperdulia to the Blessed Virgin before setting out to find and denounce Heretics, in order to achieve Salvation, following the briefest possible sojourn in Purgatory, through the Intercession of the Virgin with her divine Son.

 

[Brainache]

No it does not. See "historical Jesus - Richard Carrier" regarding Savior Gods:

"They all have stories about them set in human history on earth"

"This means Paul hallucinated the last supper, and thus received teachings from the dead Jesus (even quotes him)" (sic)

Or he could have heard about it from those who were apostles before him and lied about his "vision". Or he could have made it up, so what? He is talking about an earthly human man called Jesus, not a spirit in the sky breaking bread, passing it around and pouring cups of wine for his pals...

And some followers of John Frum say he is the biological brother of a man who only has sisters. Your point?

Then the followers of John Frum don't believe he was a spirit who lived and died in the sub-lunar celestial sphere. Neither did the first followers of Jesus (at least one of whom was his brother)...

Is this the kind of thing a disembodied spirit does?:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 7&version=KJ21



Prophet Fred was trying to take the John Frum movement in his own direction as well: " The American messiah is little more than a figurehead in Fred’s version, which bans the display of foreign flags, including Old Glory, and forbids any talk of cargo."

None of this means John Frum existed.

Chief Isaac: “John Frum came to help us get back our traditional customs, our kava drinking, our dancing, because the missionaries and colonial government were deliberately destroying our culture,” Chief Isaac says, his pidgin English translated by Daniel.

Paul Raffaele: “But if John Frum, an American, is going to bring you modern goods, how does that sit with his wish that you lead a kastom life?” I ask.

Chief Isaac: “John is a spirit. He knows everything,” the chief says, slipping past the contradiction with the poise of a skilled politician. “He’s even more powerful than Jesus.”

Paul Raffaele: “Have you ever seen him?”
“Yes, John comes very often from Yasur to advise me, or I go there to speak with John.”

Now this is shortly before the Smithsonian article was published in 2006.

Here we have a man stating that John Frum and himself often talk to each other on Earth. But John Frum supposedly appeared in the 1930s or about 70 years previously (let's ignore that variant that has him in the 1910s for the moment) and yet he is still appearing to the faithful all these years later.

What is your point? People make up stuff about religious figures... Not exactly news.

There was a Jesus movement which Paul persecuted at first, but later joined. He didn't invent Jesus, he just taught a different version to the original followers and they fought about it.

 

[Craig B]

“Yes, John comes very often from Yasur to advise me, or I go there to speak with John.”

Now this is shortly before the Smithsonian article was published in 2006.

Here we have a man stating that John Frum and himself often talk to each other on Earth.

Yes, or the visionary goes "there" to speak to Frum. Presumably in trance states, as shamans do.

Now, consider this: if a Christian said to you, Jesus comes to visit me, you would conclude that the Christian was delusional. But you would not conclude that the Christian did not believe that Jesus was ever on earth as a physical human being.

That is the point being argued. Paul believed that Jesus had been on earth as a physical human being. In stating otherwise, Carrier is wrong.

 

[dejudge]

Did Chrysostom or Origen meet James? How would they know James' relationship to Jesus? They lived a long time after him and a long way away, unlike Paul.

What absolute logically fallacious nonsense.

Did you you meet James?

How would you know James' relationship to Jesus?

You live in the 21st century!!!


How much longer can we accept your pathetic nonsense??!!

Here he is again talking about that James person:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 2&version=CEV

Then he has a go at Peter:


There he is being the exact opposite of "Zealous of the Law"...

Why are you telling me that in the 21st century??

Did you meet Peter??

It is most mind boggling that the very same Brainache who asked if Origen or Chrysostom met James has forgotten that he himself have NOT met James, Jesus and PAUL.

 

[Brainache]

What absolute logically fallacious nonsense.

Did you you meet James?

How would you know James' relationship to Jesus?

You live in the 21st century!!!


How much longer can we accept your pathetic nonsense??!!



Why are you telling me that in the 21st century??

Did you meet Peter??

It is most mind boggling that the very same Brainache who asked if Origen or Chrysostom met James has forgotten that he himself have NOT met James, Jesus and PAUL.

Well, you see I have been using my amazing super power of reading what's written and understanding the words...

 

[IanS]

They mean plenty squadoo. Here is the squadoo they mean.

The squadoo is that by attributing the consumption of bread and wine to Jesus, Paul is ipso facto asserting a belief in a recent physical Jesus.

It may sound to you as if it's a "recent physical Jesus", but that is certainly NOT what Paul's letters says. Iirc, the letter does not say that last Supper was "recent". Iirc, it does not say when Paul imagined any such supper had happened. And the letter does not say that it was a "physical Jesus" meaning a normal human person of the past.

But the essential fact here is that Paul explicitly says that he obtained that Last Supper story as "received from the Lord". He got it from his belief in a dead non-existent talking spirit in the heavens. It was a figment of his imagination. Paul's last supper story came from his theological imagination. The supper is something Paul imagined!

He imagined Jesus taking an apocryphal last meal with "disciples", and he "delivered" that belief to his readers in the letter. He is telling his readers the story he imagined as guidance on how they should give thanks to Jesus when they take food and wine as the sustenance of life. It's an allegorical apocryphal message to the faithful as guidance on how they should keep the faith in food rituals.

There was no last supper. It was the product of Paul's imagined conversation with the dead spirit of Jesus. And his letter actually explicitly tells you that ... "For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you" (1 Corinthians 11:23) ... it's an imagined vision of Jesus.

Thus, whether Paul was right or wrong in making that assumption the fact that he did manifestly make it refutes Carrier's prime thesis, namely that, as above Paul considered him to have been a real person, elevated after death to a heavenly status, and in that state known through revelation; and Paul expresses that belief whether the belief is right or wrong in Romans 1.

Therein resides the squadoo.

No! Whether or not Paul believed Jesus was ever a normal human on earth is totally irrelevant! The fact here is that this was an imagined conversation with a dead spirit from heaven. There is no evidence of a human Jesus there.

There is no evidence of Jesus ever having a supper with anyone in that letter of Paul ... instead Paul explicitly makes clear that the "supper" is something that came to him as a vision from the dead Jesus....it was not real! ... it was Paul's vivid religious imagination of a story which did not ever take place on earth! ... Paul had no knowledge of any such supper from anyone on earth, instead he is insistent that it was divine revelation from the dead Jesus ... "For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you"!

 

[Craig B]

It is most mind boggling that the very same Brainache who asked if Origen or Chrysostom met James has forgotten that he himself have NOT met James, Jesus and PAUL.

But Paul says: I met James; and he says: James is the Brother of The Lord. That is what is being discussed. It suggests that Paul believed in the physical humanity of Jesus. Moreover other sources, or at least one other source, tells us that Jesus had a brother of that name, even assuming Matthew picked it up from Mark, and supposing the Josephan reference to be interpolated, which it may well not be.