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The Historical Jesus II

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dejudge said:
Paul knows NOTHING of Mary, Joseph and Nazareth.

Paul wrote that the Parents of Jesus were God and a woman.


Who mentioned Nazareth? What new absurdities are you cooking up, dejudge? Time will tell!

I have exposed your logically fallacious arguments. You are terrified to admit that Paul did not mention Mary, Joseph and Nazareth.


Mary, Joseph, the carpenter, and the carpenter's son are ALL LATER ADDITIONS in they were UNKNOWN by Paul based on your illogical absurdities.

Paul knows NOTHING of the birth of Satan so Satan must have been born normally based on your illogical absurdities.

Paul knows NOTHING of the Angel Gabriel so the Angel Gabriel must have been born normally based on your illogical absurdities.

Paul knows NOTHING of the creation of Eve so Eve must have been born normally on your illogical absurdities.

We already know that you have ZERO historical data for your HJ argument is just attempting to disrupt the thread day after day.

Don't you understand that people here know that you are NOT able to present a shred of evidence to support your HJ argument?

You always forget that you have admitted your Paul was an AUDITORY Hallucinator.

We cannot go over your debunked un-evidenced arguments every day.

The HJ argument has already been thoroughly debunked from every known angle.
 
Craig B said:
We must consider the character of the text. I don't think you attach enough significance to the difference between an avowed (even if not accurate) history, on one hand, and an avowed fiction, or a description of insanity, on the other.

Is gMark "an avowed history"?

Mark 1:1 "son of God", (n.b. yes I know, "son of God" is not found in Codex Sinaiticus, until Mark 1:2.)

So, what is the "character of that text", Mark 1:1, Craig?

What I seek to point out, is that your desire to cite Pliny the Younger's text as evidence of the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, fails to persuade, because the character under indictment in Pliny's courtroom is a supernatural deity.

Pliny, at the end of the day, is writing about a figure, "Christ" in this case, whose paternal DNA comes from YHWH, according to gMark. It doesn't matter if Pliny had recorded pages and pages of actual transcripts of his interviews with those who had been arrested and brought before him. What matters is that the person Pliny describes, (if we assume, that, by "Christ", he meant the Jesus figure described in gMark), is a mythical being. Lots of pages of nonsense is still nonsense.
 
Can you give me chapter and verse for that?



Craig - what would it take for you to admit that there is in fact no credible evidence of Jesus as a human person?

Where, in all of human history, do you think there is any credible evidence of anyone at all who ever claimed to have met a human Jesus?
 
Craig - what would it take for you to admit that there is in fact no credible evidence of Jesus as a human person?

Where, in all of human history, do you think there is any credible evidence of anyone at all who ever claimed to have met a human Jesus?
Nowhere, as I have said. You're now simply trolling, and I will not respond to you again.
 
I see you are still trying to right the wrongs of 1800 years of Christian Hegemony, eh, IanS?
 
Nowhere, as I have said. You're now simply trolling, and I will not respond to you again.


Of course I am not "trolling". That's just a silly remark.

OK, so you do agree there is actually no credible evidence of Jesus as a human person (yes?).

Then why do you believe in his existence without any credible evidence of him?

If you believe things without evidence that is really called "faith".

You are placing your trust & faith in the religious beliefs written by 1st century (or perhaps 2nd, 3rd or 4th century) religious fanatics of almost unimaginable superstitious ignorance who believed quite literally in gods, devils, demons, angels, miracles and the supernatural.

Those are the people, and those are the standards, that you are relying upon to state your belief in Jesus. Why accept the beliefs and standards of people so obviously flawed as that?
 
Ἀρχὴ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ, υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ
No. What I asked for was this.
"Christ" in this case, whose paternal DNA comes from YHWH, according to gMark.
Can you give me chapter and verse for that?
You mean Mark believed that Jesus was physically begotten by the substance of the Creator of the Universe, but he can't be bothered telling us so? Even though the Gospels that do tell us this had not yet been written? Does that seem plausible to you?

As I have noted before, the expression Son of God is a Messianic title. In particular a title of the anointed kings of the Davidic dynasties. There is a quite explicit separation of this title from physical paternity in several passages in the OT. I've given them before, but just for you I'll do it all over again.

1 Chron 17
11: When your days are fulfilled to go to be with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom.
12: He shall build a house for me, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13: I will be his Father, and he shall be my Son; I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you
1 Chron 22
9: Behold, a son shall be born to you; he shall be a man of peace. I will give him peace from all his enemies round about; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. 10: He shall build a house for my name. He shall be my Son, and I will be his Father, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel for ever.'
1 Chron 28
6: He said to me, `It is Solomon your son who shall build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my Son, and I will be his Father.
Psalms 2
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Even though the OT tells us David's physical father was Jesse, this passage tells us as King, he was the Son of God. Mark is sending us the message that Jesus is such a kingly figure.
 
I see you are still trying to right the wrongs of 1800 years of Christian Hegemony, eh, IanS?



What I am "trying" to do, is to highlight the fact that despite 2000 years of Christian church leaders and Biblical scholars insisting that the evidence for Jesus was so overwhelming as to prove "certainty", the fact of the matter actually is that when asked for that evidence they cannot actually produce any reliable evidence of the existence of a human Jesus known to anyone ever at all!

They have no evidence of him! None at all.

If you want to believe in Jesus upon faith, then nobody is stopping you. But in a 21st century age of scientific awareness, most educated people now understand that there are few if any things that you should believe without genuine credible evidence. And certainly not the supernatural beliefs of completely ignorant religious fanatics telling tales of the supernatural in the 1st century.
 
What I am "trying" to do, is to highlight the fact that despite 2000 years of Christian church leaders and Biblical scholars insisting that the evidence for Jesus was so overwhelming as to prove "certainty", the fact of the matter actually is that when asked for that evidence they cannot actually produce any reliable evidence of the existence of a human Jesus known to anyone ever at all!

They have no evidence of him! None at all.

If you want to believe in Jesus upon faith, then nobody is stopping you. But in a 21st century age of scientific awareness, most educated people now understand that there are few if any things that you should believe without genuine credible evidence. And certainly not the supernatural beliefs of completely ignorant religious fanatics telling tales of the supernatural in the 1st century.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: What do you think such evidence would look like?

A letter from Pontius Pilate? An essay by Philo? An autographed copy of the sermon on the mount?

Historical evidence for people like Jesus comes from an understanding of the cultural and historical context. That context includes the state of the religio-political zeitgeist of 1st century Palestine, a place where teachers like Jesus were all over the place. There is simply no need to invent a mythical celestial Jesus when there were dozens of candidates wandering around the country collecting followers wherever they went.

Add to that the fact that if someone like Philo had written anything about Jesus that the later Church didn't like, it wouldn't have survived. If Philo had called Jesus a false Prophet who led many astray (or something), do you think the Christian Scribes of the middle ages would have preserved it? We don't have everything that Philo wrote, we don't even have complete works by the early Church Fathers. Those guys might have had some interesting things to say about the early days of the religion, but if it disagreed with later Church dogma, it disappeared.

It's a lot more complicated than just looking for a document that says: "I met Jesus".

(I'm on Ian's ignore list, so unless someone quotes this post, he won't see it)
 
Paul knows NOTHING of the birth of Satan so Satan must have been born normally based on your illogical absurdities.
Paul doesn't say that Satan was
made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
Paul knows NOTHING of the Angel Gabriel so the Angel Gabriel must have been born normally based on your illogical absurdities.
Paul doesn't say that Gabe was
made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
Paul knows NOTHING of the creation of Eve so Eve must have been born normally on your illogical absurdities.
Paul doesn't say that Eve was
made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
 
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: What do you think such evidence would look like?

A letter from Pontius Pilate? An essay by Philo? An autographed copy of the sermon on the mount?

Historical evidence for people like Jesus comes from an understanding of the cultural and historical context. That context includes the state of the religio-political zeitgeist of 1st century Palestine, a place where teachers like Jesus were all over the place. There is simply no need to invent a mythical celestial Jesus when there were dozens of candidates wandering around the country collecting followers wherever they went.

Add to that the fact that if someone like Philo had written anything about Jesus that the later Church didn't like, it wouldn't have survived. If Philo had called Jesus a false Prophet who led many astray (or something), do you think the Christian Scribes of the middle ages would have preserved it? We don't have everything that Philo wrote, we don't even have complete works by the early Church Fathers. Those guys might have had some interesting things to say about the early days of the religion, but if it disagreed with later Church dogma, it disappeared.

It's a lot more complicated than just looking for a document that says: "I met Jesus".

(I'm on Ian's ignore list, so unless someone quotes this post, he won't see it)

An interesting proposition, Brainache. I will ponder this.
 
An interesting proposition, Brainache. I will ponder this.

Thank you.

I'm sure it's not an original thought, but it does seem to be overlooked by many of the MJ proponents here. Some of them seem to think that the study of Ancient History merely involves quoting isolated bits of text from "credible" authorities.
 
Thank you.

I'm sure it's not an original thought, but it does seem to be overlooked by many of the MJ proponents here. Some of them seem to think that the study of Ancient History merely involves quoting isolated bits of text from "credible" authorities.

Yet this idea that "study of Ancient History merely involves quoting isolated bits of text from "credible" authorities" is exactly what the Historical Jesus proponents have been doing for near on 2000 years!

The only differences is when you actually examine the "credible" authorities the Historical Jesus proponents keep presenting (ie Paul, Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius, Talmud, and when they are really desperate Thallus and various 2nd to 4th century century Church Fathers) you find that the "credible" authorities either are anything but or they have been tampered with.


I've said it before, but I'll say it again: What do you think such evidence would look like?

A letter from Pontius Pilate? An essay by Philo? An autographed copy of the sermon on the mount?

Well what did the Christians forged or claimed existed?

We have not one but TWO letters from Pontius Pilate; one to Tiberius and one to Claudius (Houston, George (1827) The Correspondent Vol 1 pg 354-355.) credited as being from the Acts of Pilate aka Gospel of Pilate

"It is also recorded that under Claudius, Philo came to Rome to have conversations with Peter, then preaching to the people there ... It is plain enough that he not only knew but welcomed with whole-hearted approval the apostolic men of his day, who it seems were of Hebrew stock and therefore, in the Jewish manner, still retained most of their ancient customs." - Eusebius, The History of the Church, 2:17:1)

And let's not forget "the Gospel by Jesus Christ" (Ie a Gospel supposedly written by Jesus himself which would be as close to the "autographed copy of the sermon on the mount" you proposed one could expect) Joseph Wheless mentions.

Since the Christians either forged or claimed these documents existed they themselves felt that this is what evidence for Jesus actually existing must look like...other wise they wouldn't have forged or claimed such documents existed in the first place!
 
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Historical evidence for people like Jesus comes from an understanding of the cultural and historical context. That context includes the state of the religio-political zeitgeist of 1st century Palestine, a place where teachers like Jesus were all over the place.

There were Myths like Jesus all over the Roman Empire in the 1st century.

Mythological evidence for characters like Jesus comes from "an understanding of the cultural and historical context".



Brainache said:
There is simply no need to invent a mythical celestial Jesus when there were dozens of candidates wandering around the country collecting followers wherever they went.

There is no need to invent an historical Jesus.

An historical Jesus is NOT plausible.

Myth Jesus the son of the Ghost was extremely plausible and was believed to be true even up to today.

Even atheist today believe the son of the Ghost was really real.

Brainache said:
Add to that the fact that if someone like Philo had written anything about Jesus that the later Church didn't like, it wouldn't have survived. If Philo had called Jesus a false Prophet who led many astray (or something), do you think the Christian Scribes of the middle ages would have preserved it? We don't have everything that Philo wrote, we don't even have complete works by the early Church Fathers. Those guys might have had some interesting things to say about the early days of the religion, but if it disagreed with later Church dogma, it disappeared.

Your speculation is really useless and cannot be shown to be true.

We have manuscripts which make references to the supposed authors who admit that Jesus did NOT exist in the Flesh

Brainache said:
It's a lot more complicated than just looking for a document that says: "I met Jesus".

You won't find any historical evidence for an HJ.
 
Since the Christians either forged or claimed these documents existed they themselves felt that this is what evidence for Jesus actually existing must look like...other wise they wouldn't have forged or claimed such documents existed in the first place!
That's not an answer to Brainache's question which is
What do you think such evidence would look like?
 
If you wanted me to make a complete guess about the dates - I suspect versions of the 4 gospels probably originated from much simpler and shorter oral preaching as "pericopes", designed to instruct the faithful on how they should behave in various situations. That may stretch back to centuries BC! And may have once been similar to what was being preached amongst people in the DSS community of that region.

Whether that evolved into something like early prototype written versions of the 4 gospels, and whether there were at that time numerous other gospels, and what date that might have been, I have no idea.

And I don't think there is anything more anyone can honestly say about it; except that what we now have, and all that remains, as relatively complete and relatively readable extant copies, i.e. the copies that we are actually relying upon for detail (presumably), seem to date from 4th-6th century, and mostly from 6th century onwards.

Textual analysis of the books of the Bible has been going on for several centuries. The scholars have long ago found evidence that biblical texts went through evolution, like how the Pentateuch was put together by combining from several sources and that there was at least three authors for Isaiah. From the New Testament side it was recognized that there was more than one author for Pauline epistles.

Given this large existing body of research, it should be possible to figure out the evolution of the Gospels, shouldn't it?

It turns out that they have uncovered evidence that they included parts of older texts in them. Possible earlier texts include the one called Q, Signs Gospel, and a Passion Narrative. There is no uniform agreement for what these contained or if they all existed, especially Passion Narrative seems to divide opinions. They have also found out that in the late antiquity two different versions of Mark were circulating, longer and shorter ones.

The consensus opinion is that the canonical gospels were written over a short period of time. It took only a couple of decades from writing Mark and Q before they were included in Matthew and Luke and after that the texts stayed essentially unchanged. You propose a much longer period for stabilizing the text. Do you have any evidence for that evolution? Such as linguistic changes in the text that were originally used to identify Deutero-Isaiah? Or a collection manuscripts that are copies from gospels made at different stages of text evolution?

There are the two different Marks, but what about the other gospels? If they went through long evolution, where's the evidence?

We know that there existed a version of Luke that was strikingly different from the current one even though there are no extant manuscripts for it, and you need to be able to explain its existence if you want to propose that Luke was written centuries after Jesus.

The standard version of the story goes like this:

* sometime in the 130s a rich merchant called Marcion converted to Christianity. Around 140 he moved to Rome and became an active member in the church of Rome.

* at some point he became convinced that the teachings of the church to are wrong, and went on to start a reformation.

* he denied the humanity of Jesus altogether and claimed that he was full god all the time.

* Marcion thought that the only reliable gospel was Luke, but that it had been corrupted and he produced a purified version of it by removing all references to the Old Testament and to the humanity of Jesus, such as the birth narrative as a god couldn't be born from a woman.

* in 144 Marcion was kicked out of the church of Rome and he formed his own gaining a following that evolved into the Marcionite sect that survived about 300 years.

* in early 200s Tertullian wrote an account where he enumerated the errors of the Marcian heresy where he went through the changes that Marcion had made to Luke.

If you want to argue that the texts that Tertullian used for the four gospels were not essentially the same as the modern gospels, you have to take the full forgery route where a later writer authored a text in the name of Tertullian where he put him railing against a heretic living 50 years earlier. Gets a bit too conspirational for my tastes, but I'm certain that soon there will be a post here explaining that it's the only possibility. After all, the other thing that Marcion accepted in addition to the purged Luke were the Pauline epistles.

You can also argue that Marcion's Luke was the orginal one if you want. If you do, please give that argument together with some textual analysis that shows that Marcionite and non-Marcionite parts of Luke had a different author. Even if you uncover find the evidence that all other scholars have chosen to ignore, that still doesn't change that Tertullian had essentially the modern Luke. If you deny that, you are back at the full forgery.

But nobody actually cares if it was actually Pythagoras that produced it. Because nobody today is worshipping Pythagoras worldwide in their billions as the son of almighty God!

The existence is of Pythagoras is not important to you, so you apply one standard for him. The non-existence of Jesus is important to you, so you apply another. Of course, a Jesus who was 100% human and 0% god is just as damaging to Christianity as a Jesus who is 100% invention so there's no need for the different standards. If your aim is to try to convince billions of Christians or even one singe Christian that Christianity is false, then using double standards might not be the best route.
 
Yet this idea that "study of Ancient History merely involves quoting isolated bits of text from "credible" authorities" is exactly what the Historical Jesus proponents have been doing for near on 2000 years!

The only differences is when you actually examine the "credible" authorities the Historical Jesus proponents keep presenting (ie Paul, Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Suetonius, Talmud, and when they are really desperate Thallus and various 2nd to 4th century century Church Fathers) you find that the "credible" authorities either are anything but or they have been tampered with.

Well, no. Modern Historians don't accept any ancient "Authority", they analyse texts and critically examine them within their cultural and historical context. IanS wants us to produce "credible evidence" of someone meeting a living "Jesus", but he would just dismiss any text that contained such testimony as not credible. So would any Historian. Historicity depends on more than the words in any one text.

Well what did the Christians forged or claimed existed?

We have not one but TWO letters from Pontius Pilate; one to Tiberius and one to Claudius (Houston, George (1827) The Correspondent Vol 1 pg 354-355.) credited as being from the Acts of Pilate aka Gospel of Pilate

"It is also recorded that under Claudius, Philo came to Rome to have conversations with Peter, then preaching to the people there ... It is plain enough that he not only knew but welcomed with whole-hearted approval the apostolic men of his day, who it seems were of Hebrew stock and therefore, in the Jewish manner, still retained most of their ancient customs." - Eusebius, The History of the Church, 2:17:1)

And let's not forget "the Gospel by Jesus Christ" (Ie a Gospel supposedly written by Jesus himself which would be as close to the "autographed copy of the sermon on the mount" you proposed one could expect) Joseph Wheless mentions.

Since the Christians either forged or claimed these documents existed they themselves felt that this is what evidence for Jesus actually existing must look like...other wise they wouldn't have forged or claimed such documents existed in the first place!

Exactly.

Modern Historians have determined that these things are fake by analysing the texts and understanding the cultural/historical context. Exactly the same tools they use to conclude that Jesus probably existed.
 
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