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The Heiwa Challenge

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Suppose the top portion 'C' had been only three floors ? Would that have crushed the other 107 floors of the lower 'A' portion onto the ground ?

If not, at what point (how many floors) would there have been just enough to do the job ? Six floors ?....eight ?



You see, the question you ask is one an engineer could answer. Heiwa cannot. You are incapable of concluding anything from that observation, but the appropriate conclusion is clear enough.

I will guess that three floors falling would have been sufficient to trigger a global collapse, but a real engineer can calculate the energy released by any number of collapsing floors and compare it to the amount required to destroy the building.
 
Actually floor A97 and its supports below stop floor C1 and destroys the supports above C1 (the weakest elements) and below floor C2 that comes to rest on C1. And that's the end of the local failures!

Pls note that floors C3-C13 do not collide with anything. They just displaced downwards two stories. Didn't have the chance to contact anything.

This is what normally happens to structures of The Heiwa Challenge.

Your task is to develop an improved structure where part C destroys part A! Bazant has made one structure in 1-D on a piece of paper! Upper part C is then rigid, i.e. is indestructible, and part A is very weak. Thus C destroys A and then the Earth below.

Mackey has proposed another structure. Upper part C is only one big mass M that is also indestructible, so it is supposed to crush supports below while fusing with small masses in between. What happens to M and its fused ms when contacting Earth is not clear.

I don't know which of those structures is the most ridiculous. Neither fulfills the conditions of The Heiwa Challenge, i.e. both parts A and C have identical structures + that A can carry C before.



Actually your answer is absurdly wrong. Your lack of understanding is, to repeat, staggering. The supports above C1 were destroyed when the floors C1-13 collapsed, you ****.
 
You are normally quite reasonable Grizzly and it surprises me to see you disparage Heiwa'a undoubted intellectual abilities. You don't get to be where Heiwa is if you are not highly qualified and you don't gain an international reputation as he has without being exceptional and outstanding in your field.

Given that you cannot stand up to heiwa's challenge as apparently nobody else can either your calling him stupid is clearly politically driven. You would do better to ask yourself why nobody can meet Heiwa's challenge. Could it be because he is right ? If not, give me another reason ?


The only thing undoubted about Heiwa is his incompetence. His bogus challenge does not relate to the collapse of the towers, as has been pointed out repeatedly. He keeps raving about the "indestructibility" of the collapsing mass of floors, but this concept exists only in his imagination.

Funny that a politically-motivated fraud like you would impute your own failing to others.
 
Which would have more effect on the lower 'A' portion ? Three floors dropped 150 feet or 13 floors dropped 20 inches ?

Well, if a floor (concrete only) has a mass of 620,000 kg (63.4m x63.4m x 0.08m x 1925 kg / m3), and the acceleration due to gravity is 9.8 m/s2, can't you calculate the a) momentum and b) kinetic energy involved in each collision? Why are you asking us?
 
Lead a horses ass to water

Well, if a floor (concrete only) has a mass of 620,000 kg (63.4m x63.4m x 0.08m x 1925 kg / m3), and the acceleration due to gravity is 9.8 m/s2, can't you calculate the a) momentum and b) kinetic energy involved in each collision? Why are you asking us?


You know I gave him the link to the MIT OpenCourseWare series lectured by Professor Walter Lewin. Who not only eloquently explains exactly that in his lecture series. But writes it all in chalk on the blackboards for all the world to see.
 
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Can you give the link again? I'm interested in viewing it and I can't seem to locate where you left the link :)

ETA: Nevermind! I thought you were talking about a course where Lewin discusses the WTC collapse. I saw the basic physics ones.
 
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Actually your answer is absurdly wrong. Your lack of understanding is, to repeat, staggering. The supports above C1 were destroyed when the floors C1-13 collapsed, you ****.

This is exactly what I say. The weaker supports fail first, i.e. in the upper part C structure and the lower part structure remains intact. Then C1-C13 are resting on top of part A as before = part C cannot one-way crush down part A. The Heiwa Challenge is to produce a structure that does not behave like that.
 
Guys,

This will be my last response to Heiwa's nonsense. I've decided to make it simple, but comprehensive.

Please forgive the amount of "stating the obvious" at the beginning. The folks that have had trouble understanding Heiwa's nonsense are those who have difficulty with fundamental physics.

Heiwa's objections seem to be based on two assertions:

1. That, once components of the upper Part C have been wrenched from their connections and turned into rubble, they lose their ability to destroy components in the lower Part A.

2. The upper portion of the tower (Part C) should have been destroyed during the crush down in approximately equal measure to the number of floors below that were destroyed. So that if the upper block consisted of approximately 12 stories (F99 - F110), then it should have been "eroded" by the time it crushed the lower block down about 12 - 15 stories. And the crush down should have therefore stopped around the 70th - 80th floor.

(I'll ignore the bit of inanity that "the upper block should have bounced" completely.)

Both of these assertions are completely wrong.

Here's why.

1. Fundamental Physics

The first assertion seems to have some justification in common sense. Most of us would prefer to have 5 pounds of loose bolts dropped 5' on top of our head than a 5 pound block of steel. Yet, aren't the bolts just a "broken up" 5 pound block of steel?

The answer to this is pretty easy. It lies in the fact that all damages that are caused by collisions are due to "inertial forces".

When we are hit with 5 lbs of loose bolts, the only masses that we have to accelerate (i.e., bring to a near stop from their velocity) are the individual bolts that are actually in contact with us. The fact that the bolts themselves are not connected to each other means that most of the bolts are not in contact with us at any given instant, and are not contributing to the forces applied to us. The collisions are, in essence, spread out in time.

In the case of a steel block, the internal atomic connections between all the parts of the block means that there is only one collision that happens all at once. And the entire mass of the rock needs to be accelerated. And the force that it applies to our head is much greater.

But let's look at an intermediate case. All the bolts are gathered in a steel mesh. If the mesh is very elastic, it approximates the separate bolts. If the mesh is stiff, then it approximate the solid block.

It is going to turn out that in the collapse of the towers, the mesh was made from the rebar in the concrete and the cross bracing. This mesh that is going to sweep up & trap the majority of the debris created by the crush and tie it all together at the bottom of the descending Part C of the towers.
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2. The errors in Heiwa's model:

It is pointless to attempt to draw correct conclusions from incompetent models. Models must be tied to physical reality. Many folks have already pointed out several of his flaws in both his model & his analysis.

Heiwa's "Part A/Part C" model is incompetent. He has defined Part A & Part C as "the lower & upper portions (respectively) of the building that has stood for 30 years". In other words, the undamaged, as-built floors of the towers. I will accept, & hold him to, those definitions.

The specific model errors are:
1. The impact zone has suffered massive physical and thermal damage, and can NOT be included in either Part A or Part C, but needs its own descriptor (hereafter referred to as Part D).
2. Specifically, Heiwa incorrectly includes this damaged zone into his upper component, Part C.
3. When he cuts his model into a lower Part A and upper Part C, he incorrectly shows all columns stubs at the cut to be equal length and laterally braced. In reality, the column stubs are vertically staggered and have lost most of their lateral bracing.
4. He ignores the upper & lower 2-story transition zones between the crush zone and the undamaged areas. Understanding the events, and especially the asymmetries, in these two areas is crucial to understanding why the collapse progresses to the ground.
__

3. The Errors in Heiwa's analysis:

These are too numerous to count. And have been detailed by numerous folks here already.

But the crucial one pertinent to this discussion include:

1. He ignores the difference between static & dynamic loads.
2. He ignores the asymmetric consequences of gravity and the vertical motion of the upper Part C.
3. He incorrectly claims that mass & energy of the upper block lose their ability to cause damage once they have broken into rubble.
4. Most important error: he ignores the fact that Part C is going to gather most of the debris created until its entire lower surface constitutes a near solid mass of impacted debris that easily crushes each Part A floor, one by one.
5. This lower solid mass of debris is also the material that protects the upper Part C from being eroded by the stub ends of Part A's columns.

As will be shown below, the direct consequence of using a competent model and analysis is that Part C never gets closer than about 10 (collapsed) stories to Part A at any time during the collapse.
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4. A Competent Model

Let's start with the basics.

Before the collapse began, there were eight floors (92 thru 99, inclusive, for 1WTC) that had suffered severe physical and thermal damage. [See NIST NCSTAR1-6, Chap 5. For physical damage, see Fig 5-1 & Table 5-1. For thermal damage, see Fig 5-13 & 5-14.]

Since this zone resembled neither of the other two parts, it requires its own description, Part D.

Therefore, before the collapse began:
Part A extends from the floors 1 thru 91.
Part D extends from the floors 92 thru 99.
Part C extends from floors 100 thru 110.

Figure 1: The Precollapse Model
125524a189d6822afb.jpg


Notes on the drawings:
1. All components are drawn to scale.
2. NOTE WELL: the SHORT HEAVY LINES that indicate vertical & horizontal joints between column assemblies. These are the weak points where these assemblies will fracture.
3. The cross braces have not been included for clarity.
4. The cement floors are 5" thick (4" solid, with a 1.5" wedge at the bottom that fit into the floor deck). See NIST NCSTAR1-1A, Fig 5-8, and Fig 5-9. These are drawn to scale here & one can see that the cement floors were WAFERS...!! They were amazingly thin.
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5. The collapse initiation

Figure 2: Collapse Initiation
125524a189d683c8d3.jpg


I know that this is a hugely simplified version of the collapse and that the real event was far more chaotic than I'm presenting it. However, I believe that it illuminates the SPECIFIC phenomena that undermine Heiwa's nonsense. Most specifically, the question of "why Part C is not destroyed during the collapse".

The collapse began when the column-to-crosstruss connectors gave way on the 98th floor. The peripheral columns, that were bowed inward up to that moment, suddenly snapped. The inward bowed peripheral columns snapped thru center and outward, and the upper block immediately began to descend. [See NIST NCSTAR1-6, Sec 9-3-1 & Table 9-5.]

Figure 2 above shows the consequence of removing one row of peripheral columns. Note that the drawing shows the column assemblies removed as 3 story units, AS HAPPENED on 9/11. It is easy to see that the column damage extended above & below this floor due to the 3 story height of the column assemblies. The drawing shows Floor 98 turned into a crosshatched ellipse.

After the collapse began, there are two additional 2-story "transition zones" that appear above & below the actual crush floors. The upper transition zones are marked "Tu1" & "Tu2", for 1 story & 2 stories above the collapse zone, respectively. The lower transition zones are similarly marked "Td1" & "Td2".

Note that in zones Tu1 & Td1, 2/3rds of the columns and cross-trusses, plus all of the lateral bracing on the floor have been destroyed. Similarly, in Tu2 & Td2, 1/3rd of the columns and cross-trusses, plus 2/3rds of the lateral bracings have been destroyed.

This damage in the transition zones dramatically weakens the structural integrity of these zones that are above & below to the crush floor. We will see shortly that, while the upper transition zone fills with debris (and is thereby strengthened), the lower transition zone remains free of debris and massively weaker than either Part A, Part C or the Upper Transition Zone throughout the collapse.
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6. The Collapse Progression.

In order to see why the collapse progression only in one direction, and why it continues to the ground, it is only necessary to follow a couple more steps. After Floor 98 blows out, turns to rubble and it and Part C begin to descend, the next (approximately) symmetric collapse occurs when the rubble of floor 98 hit floor 97. As shown by others, it is highly likely that Floor 97 will collapse immediately. But assume for a moment that it does not.

The next event occurs when Part C has descended sufficiently that its floor 99 stubs impact on floor 97 while the stubs from floor 97 impact on floor 99, with the rubble from floor 98 trapped in between. This is an approximately symmetric event, that turn floors 97 & 99 into rubble.

Fig 3. Collapse of Floors 97 & 99
125524a189d6852506.jpg


UP TO this point, most events have been symmetric. The symmetry ends here.

Figure 3 shows the three floors turned to rubble. What it doesn't show is the velocity of various components. The upper Part C is now descending rapidly, and it gathers up all the debris of all three floors. This debris is caught by the mesh of rebar & cross-trusses, and embeds in the open spaces of the lower part of Part C.

The mesh is also interlaced with & tied to upper Part C's core & peripheral columns. This is crucial because, as explained before, while the concrete floors can only carry & resist loads up to their own strength & the strength of their connections, the columns can carry & resist loads equal to all the floors to which they are attached.

Notice that whenever the debris is created in the crush zone, it is created from parts that are, pre-collision, stationary. But, after just one story's collapse, the descending Part C is falling much faster than a piece of debris will begin to fall. This means that the piece of debris will get swept up in the mesh of the descending part ONLY. It will not accumulate interstitially in lower Part A.

This asymmetry then becomes the exact phenomenon that allows the smaller upper Part C to crush down the bigger lower Part A. The rubble is the key.

The fact that the rubble:
1. was created from stationary mass,
2. was swept up in the descending upper Part C,
3. was entrapped in a tough horizontal mesh of cross trusses & rebar,
4. became impacted as an almost solid mass of debris, which
5. was tied to Part C's core & peripheral columns, and
6. became an impenetrable barrier that prevented the stubs of the lower columns from destroying upper Part C
resulted in a descending upper Part C that was a rectangular tube within a tube with an essentially SOLID lower end cap.

The fact that the upper floor of the lower Part A was, at ever floor:
1. a massively weakened structure
2. that had lost 2/3rds of its vertical columns and all of its lateral supports, and
3. did NOT fill in with debris

All of these phenomena are shown in Fig 4 below.

Fig. 4. Collapse of Lower Floors
125524a18f78e91884.jpg

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Conclusion:

It is PRECISELY this asymmetry in collected debris that destroys Heiwa's argument that "Part C will be destroyed before Part A". This asymmetry results directly from the relative motion of the various parts due to gravity, as several people have stated for months. The asymmetry ultimately DOES result in the weight of 12 or more upper stories collapsing onto each single weakened lower story.

The total collapse was inevitable.

I hope this helps.

tom
 
You should just give it up T.. You mention the bowing-in columns here. When the antenna started to collapse into the building the hat truss pulled in sections of the outside walls. This picture is just getting clearer and clearer.
 
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Guys,

This will be my last response to Heiwa's nonsense. I've decided to make it simple, but comprehensive.

*snip* the good stuff

That was a great, thorough and informative post. Thank you. It won't convince any of the residents of New Fraudsville in Magic Land, but it's still great. :)
 
That was a great, thorough and informative post. Thank you. It won't convince any of the residents of New Fraudsville in Magic Land, but it's still great. :)

I agree..that post looked good but was unconvincing.
 
I agree..that post looked good but was unconvincing.

If you have a reason to doubt the content then don't just stand there staring at your screen. Tell us what you do not understand or what you have issues with. I'm hoping to see the same from Heiwa, although his response with "LOL" the last time leaves me with little optimism in that.


The specific model errors are:
1. The impact zone has suffered massive physical and thermal damage, and can NOT be included in either Part A or Part C, but needs its own descriptor (hereafter referred to as Part D).
2. Specifically, Heiwa incorrectly includes this damaged zone into his upper component, Part C.
3. When he cuts his model into a lower Part A and upper Part C, he incorrectly shows all columns stubs at the cut to be equal length and laterally braced. In reality, the column stubs are vertically staggered and have lost most of their lateral bracing.
4. He ignores the upper & lower 2-story transition zones between the crush zone and the undamaged areas. Understanding the events, and especially the asymmetries, in these two areas is crucial to understanding why the collapse progresses to the ground.
__

3. The Errors in Heiwa's analysis:

These are too numerous to count. And have been detailed by numerous folks here already.

But the crucial one pertinent to this discussion include:

1. He ignores the difference between static & dynamic loads.
2. He ignores the asymmetric consequences of gravity and the vertical motion of the upper Part C.
3. He incorrectly claims that mass & energy of the upper block lose their ability to cause damage once they have broken into rubble.
4. Most important error: he ignores the fact that Part C is going to gather most of the debris created until its entire lower surface constitutes a near solid mass of impacted debris that easily crushes each Part A floor, one by one.
5. This lower solid mass of debris is also the material that protects the upper Part C from being eroded by the stub ends of Part A's columns.

And thankyou for listing these in one place. Numerous people including myself have highlighted to so degree these errors that exist in his premise. THis provides a neat summary for those who are reviewing his premise.
 
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I agree..that post looked good but was unconvincing.

I suspect that if you understood it it would be more convincing.

All that time and effort and you just say "unconvincing" no reason, no facts just you. That's what this is all about isn't it?
 
Guys,

This will be my last response to Heiwa's nonsense. I've decided to make it simple, but comprehensive.

...


3. The Errors in Heiwa's analysis:

These are too numerous to count. And have been detailed by numerous folks here already.

But the crucial one pertinent to this discussion include:

1. He ignores the difference between static & dynamic loads.
2. He ignores the asymmetric consequences of gravity and the vertical motion of the upper Part C.
3. He incorrectly claims that mass & energy of the upper block lose their ability to cause damage once they have broken into rubble.
4. Most important error: he ignores the fact that Part C is going to gather most of the debris created until its entire lower surface constitutes a near solid mass of impacted debris that easily crushes each Part A floor, one by one.
5. This lower solid mass of debris is also the material that protects the upper Part C from being eroded by the stub ends of Part A's columns.

...

The total collapse was inevitable.

I hope this helps.

tom


Thanks for post and interest in the Challenge. Topic is of course The Heiwa Challenge (see post #1) to produce a structure A+C where C (1/10 A) one-way crushes A when dropped on A, etc. A carries C before.

1. The structure A+C evidently consists of elements connected to one another. Each element has a mass and certain properties - length and cross area, material properties, etc. Each connection has certain properties and must be able to transmit force and moment, the latter can be zero, as required.
2. The static loads inside the structure are thus known and it is then easy to establish the associated static forces and moments applied to each element and transmitted by each connection.
3. We can also calculate the deformations and displacements of each element and connection due to the static loads.
4. The idea is that compressive stresses in primary supporting elements are same throughout, i.e. supporting elements at bottom of A must be heavier or stronger to withstand the static loads from above.
5. I suggest you use a simple beam element analysis software to get a feel for your structure before actually building it.
6. The structure must be able to withstand a lateral force applied at top, which is easy to check with the software (and in practice before test).
7. Now we disconnect part C from A and lift C distance h above A. Be careful not to damage C during this process.
8. Result is that part A is unloaded - it does not carry C any longer.
9. Now we drop C only using gravity! Before C contacts A, C is in free fall during drop and all internal forces and moments due to masses inside C are zero (as a falling mass in vacuum does not apply any load on anything - it just accelerates).
10. At contact (IMPACT) one element in C contacts one element in A and the two elements will be deformed and maybe one element will fail due to force and displacement. Thus the original structure is no longer the same and part of the energy applied (total is known) has been used to deform the structure and maybe break one element or connection. The force applied at contact will also decelerate C. If an element or connection is broken, the element may displace around other connections.
11. Upper part C may continue to displace downwards due gravity and other elements will contact one another, more deformations and failures may occur, etc, etc.
12. So the structural damage analysis is pretty complex! You have to keep track of all your elements all the time and verify, if they are intact or damaged and where they are located.
13. However, you can be certain that stronger elements contacting weaker elements have a tendency to break the weaker elements or their connections ... and the result will be that little part C structure is severly damaged; its weak elements will fail or be disconnected from stronger C elements by stronger elements in A. The stronger elements in C are then disconnected from other elements and ... become weak!
14. If you think that 'debris' is formed, you have to consider it. 'Debris' is apparently an element that is completely disconnected from the structure at all its connections - it is free! If you think that that 'debris' will protect C from being damaged, pls try to establish that idea in your test. Maybe the 'debris' will protect A instead?
15. If you think that said 'debris' will form a solid (?) mass of some sort (impacted, free elements) that crushes A, please, establish that idea too in your test. Maybe the solid mass will crush C instead? Consider friction forces!
16. If you think that part C, broken into damaged elements, can still damage part A, the challenge is a golden opportunity to test that idea.
17. Actually - you can break C into a couple of smaller subparts, C1, C2 and C3, etc, and drop those on A to see if a piece of C can break A. If intact C cannot break A, it is unlikely that a broken part of C, i.e. C1, C2, etc, can crush A ... but you can always try.
18. Re 'debris'! If it develops (the element must be completely free), it has a tendency to be pushed aside and out of the way and will do not harm intact structure. But if you think differently, show it will your challenge structure!


The result of The Heiwa Challenge is to establish that a structure cannot be one-way crushed down by a smaller part of itself being dropped on it by gravity only or ... that total collapse occurs. According the Björkman Axiom the latter is not possible.

Thanks again for your post. BTW - how about your religion?
 
I suspect that if you understood it it would be more convincing.

All that time and effort and you just say "unconvincing" no reason, no facts just you. That's what this is all about isn't it?

Nah...Teddy started off with the strawman approach about 'Heiwa's two assertions', he tried to dress up assumptions as pronouncements and his drawings in no way resemble realistic representations. I suspect the purpose was to put up something that could be perceived as masterful which, believe it or not, many of your fellow members are happy to accept at face value. Remember what Mike Rivero famously said:

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."
 
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Nah...Teddy started off with the strawman approach about 'Heiwa's two assertions', he tried to dress up assumptions as pronouncements and his drawings in no way resemble realistic representations. I suspect the purpose was to put up something that could be perceived as masterful which, believe it or not, many of your fellow members are happy to accept at face value. Remember what Mike Rivero famously said:

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

Why do you assume I'm taking anybody's word on this. The facts of physics speak for themselves.
 
Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

Or even worse. Encourage the more talkative moral cowards/parrots to repeat the disinfo rubbish.

But ... topic is The Heiwa Challenge. A friendly and lively challenge. Any lively structure is permitted!
 
Nah...Teddy started off with the strawman approach about 'Heiwa's two assertions'


1. That, once components of the upper Part C have been wrenched from their connections and turned into rubble, they lose their ability to destroy components in the lower Part A.

2. The upper portion of the tower (Part C) should have been destroyed during the crush down in approximately equal measure to the number of floors below that were destroyed. So that if the upper block consisted of approximately 12 stories (F99 - F110), then it should have been "eroded" by the time it crushed the lower block down about 12 - 15 stories. And the crush down should have therefore stopped around the 70th - 80th floor.

Bill you seem to be confused about what a strawman argument is...

Actually it is only the lowest elements of part C that contacts the top elements of part A. Stronger elements will then crush weaker elements and as part C is smaller (and weaker) than part A, part A crushes part C.

Quite basic actually. Happens at every collision - vertical or horizontal. And that's the reason why you cannot one-way crush down a structure from top to bottom by a little part of itself.


he tried to dress up assumptions as pronouncements and his drawings in no way resemble realistic representations. I suspect the purpose was to put up something that could be percieved as masterful which, believe it or not, many of your fellow members are happy to accept at face value.

I know that this is a hugely simplified version of the collapse and that the real event was far more chaotic than I'm presenting it. However, I believe that it illuminates the SPECIFIC phenomena that undermine Heiwa's nonsense. Most specifically, the question of "why Part C is not destroyed during the collapse".

The collapse began when the column-to-crosstruss connectors gave way on the 98th floor. The peripheral columns, that were bowed inward up to that moment, suddenly snapped. The inward bowed peripheral columns snapped thru center and outward, and the upper block immediately began to descend. [See NIST NCSTAR1-6, Sec 9-3-1 & Table 9-5.]...

Bill, you don't understand what the purpose of a model is do you? Valid models are designed to highlight important aspects of a concept and simplify them so that you, the reader can better understand what the model conveys. Clearly you have extreme difficulty in this area, in which case you could have just asked about what things you don't understand clearly. That's obviously expecting too much from you though.

Remember what Mike Rivero famously said:

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

Which you just used in an entirely wrong context... Of course you're first thought was to accuse me of having political motivations and now material you clearly didn't read or understand without so much as any substantiation rather than asking questions on anything you were not clear on. Not surprising.
 
Why do you assume I'm taking anybody's word on this. The facts of physics speak for themselves.

Right...and then you must knw that a giant skyscraper is never crushed down to the ground by one tenth of itself whatever you are told. This is evidenced by the fact that it has never hppened in the history of worldwide consructon.
 
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