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The hard problem of consciousness

I'm saying that we have no idea what causes consciousness. That seems to be such an obvious thing to say that it's almost embarassing to keep repeating it.

It appears to be a physical phenomenon. However, to baldly assert that we know this with certainity, without having any idea what physical process creates it, is just handwaving.
And perhaps this statement is amde due to a lack of information concerning the science involved in many fields of study.
For example, there's a school of thought that says that it's just a matter of algorithmic/mechanical complexity. Thus any mechanism has a degree of consciousness, and something as complex as we are will have the same amount, approximately speaking.
Consciousness is a word, it is applied in an idiosyncratic fashion to different categories of observable behavior. Private and public.

How do you that you are conscious?
This just appears to be an assertion based on nothing more than the fact that human beings are complex, and have consciousness. Aside from that, it's just using the same name for two different things and claiming that they are the same. It's in no way a scientific theory, and it doesn't really explain anything.
if you assert that they are seperate then what evidence supports that theory?
Other theories that I've seen suffer from the same problem - they are based on nothing in particular apart from what the theorizer wants to be true.

It's a disturbing thing that we know so little about it, but just making things up doesn't help.

Maybe you are reading the wrong sources.
 
Best line on this thread.

Some people insist that they know, until it's time to prove it.

And sometimes people who read only philosophy don't know what study and research is being done. they then assert that a whole field of study and research does not exist.

maybe just because they read the wrong sources.

Try these:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 
So what is the physical explanation of consciousness? Is it electrical? Quantum? Algorithmic? What are the equations for the consciousness theory?

*sigh* Why is it that when I post meaningful information on these threads, everyone except those that don't need the information ignore me?

I already mentioned a solid, easy to understand, very probable theory of what consciousness is and how it originates. The ideas have been known for decades.

In case you missed it -- all self-consciousness requires is a reasoning system robust enough to reason about itself by itself.

It's noteworthy that the theories mostly come from philosophers, not scientists, with the occasional exception such as Penrose - and he's ready to admit that he's barely scratched the surface and may be totally wrong anyway. That leaves this particular area at the Aristotle level.

Except, of course, for nearly every scientist in the fields of Artificial Intelligence and Cognitive Science who has their own theory about consciousness -- and who aren't sensationalist enough to publish a book on it.

Having a plethora of explanations does not inspire confidence that the problem is easy.

The only reason you think there are a plethora of viable explanations is because you don't seem to bother to examine many of them in depth. There are a load of explanations for why the moon hangs in the sky, but only a few of them are non-contradictory.

Having explanations that consist largely of handwaving and assertions does not inspire confidence. A thermostat has consciousness but a rock doesn't?

The only reason you think they consist largely of handwaving and assertions is because you seem to conveniently ignore the logical explanations based on evidence.

It's up to the people putting forward theories to be able to back them up convincingly. The very fact that there are so many theories makes it clear that none of them have been in any way proven.

Wait... are you seriously claiming that this makes all the theories equal when it comes to their validity or plausibility?

What's really strange is that the simple observation that there is not the remotest trace of any meaningfull scientific theory of consciousness at present - which is undoubtedly true - turns one into some kind of mystic. Sometimes "we don't know" is the only honest answer.

That's a pretty funny statement. I mean, GEB was written over a quarter century ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel,_Escher,_Bach

Are you that far out of the loop when it comes to cognitive science and A.I. ?
 
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through subjective experience.

I'm not able to convey the experience of tasting chocolate ice cream, through concepts and ideas, I know any explanation falls short of the real thing.
I believe you can have the same experience, and realize how you can't explain it to other.

You can't convey information to a computer with concepts and ideas either.

If you have two monitors, and you want one to display the same pixels as the other, you must exchange the information in a format they understand. You can't use the clumsy english language, or even a programming language for that matter -- you must use the raw binary (or some equivalent).

If you want someone else to share the experience of chocolate that you have, you need to provide their neurons with the same signals that yours received -- the raw binary, if you will -- and this is impossible for an unassisted human. First, to represent the data in our language it would require more information than a human can assemble. Second, even if we could assemble it into something meaningful, there is no way a human could then activate the proper neurons "at will" to simulate the experience.

This limitation in no way detracts from any of the plausible theories of consciousness (it certainly doesn't detract from mine).
 
To me, the only thing I don't need explained to me is what my own sensations feel like, and what the experience of consciousness is like. But I have no way of knowing if my sense of consciousness is in any way related to anyone else's.

Sorry to reach all the way back to page one for a quote, but it is important.

The HPC is "hard" because it is incredibly poorly phrased, and presupposes a sort of answer that science cannot deliver. "Gives rise to consciousness" implies that this consciousness thingie is of a different sort of stuff than the active body that gives rise to it; that phrase allows the endless consciousness-of-the-gaps arguments we have seen here.

A very serious question for any (like westprog) who are certain of their own sensations: How did you learn to label them? Do you really, honestly believe that the feeling of, say, hunger, comes pre-labeled? Or love? Hatred? Red? It is, of course, quite impossible for us to know whether you and I see the color red identically. (Indeed, there is good evidence that we do not, as I have an abnormal distribution of color photopigments; I am not color-blind, but I am color-anomalous.) There is no single set of physical properties that will always be labeled "red", and indeed no single wavelength that we call "red" (red is odd that way--to get something that appears to be pure red, we must mix at least two wavelengths, unlike the case with green, blue, or yellow). So, then, what is "red"? We simply cannot define it as a qualia, because we cannot know that your red and mine are the same. We cannot define it as a stimulus, because there are countless examples that are sometimes red and sometimes not.

We define these "subjective" (another word that presupposes a different sort of stuff--as dancing david reminds us, "private" is a better word) qualities, like red, love, hunger, or hatred, based on publicly available referents and a history of interaction with a verbal community. Red is red because we agree to call this set of things red. We infer someone is in love (including ourselves) because of how we act. We label the private accompanying feelings accordingly, but once again it is quite impossible for us to know that love feels for one person like it does for another. (Thus, Hallmark makes more than one card.) The HPC is looking for an answer within the person, which is the one place we cannot find an answer. Consciousness arises socially, from the behavior of interacting individuals. It is a label for a fuzzy set of behaviors--behaviors which are not limited to humans.

Can computers be conscious? According to my parents, their computer hates them, and plots against them, and chooses not to let them check their email when out of Texas. Because they don't know the programming, they use internal, conscious terms to "explain" their computer's behavior. My computer is also conscious--and self-aware, to boot! It tells me it is nearly full, and tells me how long it is going to take to download stuff, and all sorts of neat public reports of private processes.

As for Darat's "ran", there is one additional distinction (which I think actually adds to his example); we have sensory neurons in our bodies which report the sensations of running. The brain does not sense itself; all we have access to (and imperfectly at that) is the result of the process, not the process itself. Imagine if your "ran" was invisible, and you simply found yourself in a new location. That would certainly seem like magic. It would be a very hard problem to analyze.

Lastly... the "rich tapestry of experience" (or whatever phrase was bandied about) that makes up our inner world... is easily shown to be not nearly what it appears to be. If we are trying to explain the mechanisms of consciousness, it might help to start with what it really is, not what it appears to be. The Chalmers question of "why does it not just go on in the dark" can be answered "well, a huge lot of it does!" The research on blindsight, anterograde amnesia, and other phenomena shows that awareness is not a necessary part of controlling our actions.

Anyway... the other thing worth mentioning is (as others have said) that this question has been wrestled with on this forum many times before. There were some wonderful threads with Interesting Ian, for instance, and frustrating ones with Iacchus. Well worth reading, IMHO, if you have a month or two to spare.
 
You can't convey information to a computer with concepts and ideas either.

If you have two monitors, and you want one to display the same pixels as the other, you must exchange the information in a format they understand. You can't use the clumsy english language, or even a programming language for that matter -- you must use the raw binary (or some equivalent).

If you want someone else to share the experience of chocolate that you have, you need to provide their neurons with the same signals that yours received -- the raw binary, if you will -- and this is impossible for an unassisted human. First, to represent the data in our language it would require more information than a human can assemble. Second, even if we could assemble it into something meaningful, there is no way a human could then activate the proper neurons "at will" to simulate the experience.

This limitation in no way detracts from any of the plausible theories of consciousness (it certainly doesn't detract from mine).

I'd say it actually adds to the plausibility of theories of consciousness in that it explains why language may have evolved (and by language I simply mean communication).

To use a human example, I cannot directly access your brain in the sense of poking it and moving neurons around however I can directly access your brain by creating stimuli such as sounds, scents, pressure and so on which allows information to be passed from one part of the environment (me) to another part (you). Consciousness can be viewed simply as this information passing through the environment or in other words it's simply just another "ran".
 
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How, exactly, is experience different to computation?

A computational device can do only on thing and thats compute, make calculation. what makes you believe a giant calculator can draw some experience from a math formula. Do transistor enjoy math?

Always win at chess, marry a princess, study hard and be an eminent professor...

Maybe he would do all those things but sadly he wouldn't experience it.

No, the same bunch of transistors, via a feedback loop. That's the distinction between something like a thermostat, which Dennett describes as aware, and something that is self-aware.

Round and round.

Interesting. Information or a signals that goes round and round creates experience. So a thermostat that has some sort of feed back loop turns into a experincing entity.

Well, sure. Absolutely. But entirely irrelevant, because experience is computation.

Would a computer based on purely machnical action (consisting of levers gears and spings) have the same affect when it comes to creating a machine that experiences?

Experiences are information.

sort of, but something has to experience that information for it to have any meaning. If you compute it, it only transforms that information. again no experience there.
 
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A computational device can do only on thing and thats compute, make calculation. what makes you believe a giant calculator can draw some experience from a math formula. Do transistor enjoy math?

Is the brain a physical system? If it is, it can be modelled by a "computational device". If it isn't, what are the non-physical components?

Leon
 
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I'm saying that we have no idea what causes consciousness. That seems to be such an obvious thing to say that it's almost embarassing to keep repeating it.

It appears to be a physical phenomenon. However, to baldly assert that we know this with certainity, without having any idea what physical process creates it, is just handwaving.

For example, there's a school of thought that says that it's just a matter of algorithmic/mechanical complexity. Thus any mechanism has a degree of consciousness, and something as complex as we are will have the same amount, approximately speaking.

This just appears to be an assertion based on nothing more than the fact that human beings are complex, and have consciousness. Aside from that, it's just using the same name for two different things and claiming that they are the same. It's in no way a scientific theory, and it doesn't really explain anything.

Other theories that I've seen suffer from the same problem - they are based on nothing in particular apart from what the theorizer wants to be true.

It's a disturbing thing that we know so little about it, but just making things up doesn't help.
You keep repeating strawmen, illogical comments, and logical fallacies.

It is pretty obvious that you haven't done any thinking on the subject. You've invested a massive amount of brain sweat on rationalizing your irrational faith in a non-physical explanation for "consciousness", and nothing else. You want it to be true, so you distort, twist, and mutilate logic and reality to fit your need for it to be true.

A lot of people have spent a lot of time and energy actually thinking about consciousness and explaining facets of it. Your insulting insistence that no one has presented anything of meaning or value means that, as far as I'm concerned, this "conversation" is over. When you read and attempt to digest the information presented to you in this thread, and are ready to answer it with something other than evasion and strawmen, let me know.
 
Is the brain a physical system? If it is, it can be modelled by a "computational device". If it isn't, what are the non-physical components?

Leon

Any physical system can be modelled (to some extent) by a "computational device". That doesn't mean that the model is equivalent to the thing modelled.

I can model the New York subway system on my PC. However, if I want to travel around New York, I need a real train. There is no reason to assume that the model will acquire consciousness. It might, but until we know how consciousness arises, we shouldn't assume it.
 
I'm saying that we have no idea what causes consciousness. That seems to be such an obvious thing to say that it's almost embarassing to keep repeating it.

It appears to be a physical phenomenon. However, to baldly assert that we know this with certainity, without having any idea what physical process creates it, is just handwaving.

For example, there's a school of thought that says that it's just a matter of algorithmic/mechanical complexity. Thus any mechanism has a degree of consciousness, and something as complex as we are will have the same amount, approximately speaking.

This just appears to be an assertion based on nothing more than the fact that human beings are complex, and have consciousness. Aside from that, it's just using the same name for two different things and claiming that they are the same. It's in no way a scientific theory, and it doesn't really explain anything.

Other theories that I've seen suffer from the same problem - they are based on nothing in particular apart from what the theorizer wants to be true.

It's a disturbing thing that we know so little about it, but just making things up doesn't help.

It does seem as though it simply depends on complexity. Take a simple unicellular organism like an amoeba - it has very simple behaviours and most people would say that it didn't possess consciousness. As we move up the evolutionary tree, consciousness seems to emerge gradually, as organisms become more and more complex. It's presumably adaptive, in an evolutionary sense, otherwise, there wouldn't be such a clear progression.

Even when we consider a single individual, consciousness seems to develop gradually. Take a neonate - there is obviously some degree of consciousness present, but it is enhanced as the brain develops and becomes more complex, as new neuronal connections are formed. Even before birth, consciousness must develop slowly from nothing, as the embryo grows.

Leon
 
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A lot of people have spent a lot of time and energy actually thinking about consciousness and explaining facets of it. Your insulting insistence that no one has presented anything of meaning or value means that, as far as I'm concerned, this "conversation" is over. When you read and attempt to digest the information presented to you in this thread, and are ready to answer it with something other than evasion and strawmen, let me know.

No kidding. Its like trying to debate with a politician.

We have provided solid answers to all their questions. They ignore these answers then make more posts with the same questions. Its like they think if they just ignore us then we will magically be wrong. How does that work?
 
A computational device can do only on thing and thats compute, make calculation. what makes you believe a giant calculator can draw some experience from a math formula. Do transistor enjoy math?
Can you let me know precisely what it is to "enjoy math", and how it is you know whether you or any other person enjoys math? If enjoyment can only be defined subjectively, how do you know that your enjoyment of math really should be using the same word ("enjoy") as, say, Darat's enjoyment of math?

Once again, the subjective term assumed to be the bedrock is actually just a fuzzy place-holder for a roughly agreed-upon set of publicly observable behaviors in a language community. The HPC looks for an answer where there is no answer to be found, and insists that it will only accept an answer from that place.
Maybe he would do all those things but sadly he wouldn't experience it.
Anything asserted without evidence can be dismissed just as easily. You are defining "experience" in such a manner as to exclude "doing"; I would have hoped that Darat's "ran" would show you you cannot meaningfully do that.

THere was more, but I know it was not addressed to me, so I'll stop there.
 
It does seem as though it simply depends on complexity. Take a simple unicellular organism like an amoeba - it has very simple behaviours and most people would say that it didn't possess consciousness. As we move up the evolutionary tree, consciousness seems to emerge gradually, as organisms become more and more complex. It's presumably adaptive, in an evolutionary sense, otherwise, there wouldn't be such a clear progression.

Even when we consider a single individual, consciousness seems to develop gradually. Take a neonate - there is obviously some degree of consciousness present, but it is enhanced as the brain develops and becomes more complex, as new neuronal connections are formed.

Leon
Note that in both examples, what is changing is the sort of behavior we can observe. (And when someone is "unconscious", they are exhibiting very few behaviors, other than perhaps breathing.)

The HPC is looking in the wrong place for answers.
 
A lot of people have spent a lot of time and energy actually thinking about consciousness and explaining facets of it.

Yes, and they disagree about almost everything. Note how Penrose - one of the smartest people in the world - was dismissed out of hand upthread.

Your insulting insistence that no one has presented anything of meaning or value

Which is of course a travesty of what I said.

means that, as far as I'm concerned, this "conversation" is over. When you read and attempt to digest the information presented to you in this thread, and are ready to answer it with something other than evasion and strawmen, let me know.

Luckily I don't rely on what is posted on internet forums to get information on this subject. There are plenty of texts out there. What there isn't is a consensus.
 
Any physical system can be modelled (to some extent) by a "computational device". That doesn't mean that the model is equivalent to the thing modelled.

I can model the New York subway system on my PC. However, if I want to travel around New York, I need a real train. There is no reason to assume that the model will acquire consciousness. It might, but until we know how consciousness arises, we shouldn't assume it.

Here is a question for you:

In the game I am working on, we have fully realistic rigid body physics simulation.

The rigid bodies are just models of real world objects. The physics equations are just a model of real world physics.

Assume I stack some objects, in the game, into a pile.

Is the pile a pile, or just a model of a pile? Why or why not?
 
Yes, and they disagree about almost everything. Note how Penrose - one of the smartest people in the world - was dismissed out of hand upthread.

Penrose is a very good mathematician, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows more about consciousness than specialists in more relevant fields such as philosophy, computing and neuroscience.

How can microtubules perform quantum computations at body temperature?

Leon
 
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Can you let me know precisely what it is to "enjoy math", and how it is you know whether you or any other person enjoys math? If enjoyment can only be defined subjectively, how do you know that your enjoyment of math really should be using the same word ("enjoy") as, say, Darat's enjoyment of math?

We don't, of course. But I have an internal state which I refer to as enjoyment. I observe that somebody else behaves in a similar way to me when I'm enjoying something, and I assume - without knowing - that his internal state corresponds to mine.

I know what my internal state is, corresponding to enjoyment. I don't discover it by observing my own behaviour. I experience it.

Once again, the subjective term assumed to be the bedrock is actually just a fuzzy place-holder for a roughly agreed-upon set of publicly observable behaviors in a language community. The HPC looks for an answer where there is no answer to be found, and insists that it will only accept an answer from that place.

I'm interested in an explanation of my internal state. The fact that language is fuzzy, and that the phenomenon is inherently subjective is not sufficient grounds for dismissing something that I know to be real.

Anything asserted without evidence can be dismissed just as easily. You are defining "experience" in such a manner as to exclude "doing"; I would have hoped that Darat's "ran" would show you you cannot meaningfully do that.

THere was more, but I know it was not addressed to me, so I'll stop there.
 

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