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"THE GROUND TRUTH" by John Farmer

njslim

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njslim
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Was reading through John Farmer's , counsel to 911 Commission, new book
on FAA/NORAD activities on 911 - in particular when did FAA inform Norad
of hijackings. Our friend, CHEAP SHOT, is mentioned in several places as
military liason at Boston ATC.

Learned several new things

1) United airlines broadcast the ATC traffic over the in flight headphones
on channel 9

2) The NYC - Washington attacks were synchronized in pairs with American
airline flights going in first. It was conjectured that the hijackers would be listening to the ATC traffic on the United flight - presumably to see if hijackings had been detected and if any measures were in place to stop them

Any else have any thoughts on this.
 
The hijackers were able to listen to ATC radio traffic in the cockpit, no need for any other method or any specific Airline.

What would they have done differently with knowledge gained from radio traffic? This theory doesn't make sense to me
 
Reheat said:
The hijackers were able to listen to ATC radio traffic in the cockpit, no need for any other method or any specific Airline.

What would they have done differently with knowledge gained from radio traffic? This theory doesn't make sense to me
Click to expand...

I´m still waiting for the arrival of my copy of Farmer´s book, but I know the channel-9 hypothesis from elsewhere. The point is that through channel 9 al-Sheehi on UA 175 probably would have been able to hear Atta´s first transmission, while still sitting in his his passenger seat (not in the cockpit!), and therefore would have known that Atta and his muscle hijackers succeeded in entering the cockpit of AA 11. In other words, Atta´s first transmission could have been part of an arrangement between Atta and al-Sheehi.
I´m not entirely convinced by this hypothesis, but it would explain some events (like Atta making a transmission to the passengers which could be heard by many people outside the plane).
Boone knows a lot more about this.
 
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progge said:
I´m not entirely convinced by this hypothesis, but it would explain some events (like Atta making a transmission to the passengers which could be heard by many people outside the plane).
Boone knows a lot more about this.
Click to expand...

Now that you've twigged my memory, I recall hearing of this before. I wasn't convinced then, so it had slipped my mind. I'm not convinced now either.
 
njslim said:
Any else have any thoughts on this.
Click to expand...


Channel 9 is part of United's in-flight entertainment and can be turned on and off at the pilot's discretion. If the pilot had the feature turned on and the hijackers were listening, they would have heard Atta's first two transmissions.

American 11 switched frequencies to 127.82 at 8:07 and remained on that frequency until 8:34 when Atta made his third and final radio transmission.

United 175 changed frequencies to 127.82 at 8:22 and remained there until 8:27.

It is possible that al Shehhi overheard Atta speaking on the frequency and used those transmissions as confirmation that the plan was working.

This is one of those "what if" questions that will most likely remain unanswered.
 
Ramzi Binalshibh told Yosri Fouda that the separate groups of hijackers were communicating and encouraging each other, although he didn't say how.
 
Unfortunately there is no one alive who can tell us if the ATC radio traffic was turned on on in flight channel 9 or if the hijackers made their move on flt 175 in seeming coordination with hearing Atta's transmission.

Its interesting speculation though.
 
"encouraging each other"
What were Atta's exact words? Something like " we are returning to the airport"? Since we are speculating ,,, that could be code for "We are heading to the target".
 
jaydeehess said:
"encouraging each other"
What were Atta's exact words? Something like " we are returning to the airport"? Since we are speculating ,,, that could be code for "We are heading to the target".
Click to expand...

I always found it coincidental, that UAL175 was hijacked on the frequency transfer to ZNY Center. I pretty much always thought it was just a coincidence, but maybe they were waiting for that I don't know. If we had known sooner that UAL175 was hijacked we would have reacted faster towards UAL175, and maybe we would have grounded aircraft sooner, UAL93 may never have departed. A lot of "what ifs" I guess you can "what if" yours elf until you are blue in the face.

Bought the book and passed through it quickly, I hope to read some of this over weekend.
 
jaydeehess said:
"encouraging each other"
What were Atta's exact words? Something like " we are returning to the airport"? Since we are speculating ,,, that could be code for "We are heading to the target".
Click to expand...



8:24:38- "We have some planes. Just stay quiet and you'll be okay. We are returning to the airport."

8:24:56- "Nobody move. Everything will be okay. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane."

8:33:59- "Nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves."

Source
 
Cheap Shot said:
I always found it coincidental, that UAL175 was hijacked on the frequency transfer to ZNY Center. I pretty much always thought it was just a coincidence, but maybe they were waiting for that I don't know.
Click to expand...

Well, the obvious question is, how would they have known? Would that be something they could determine by listening in on Channel 9?
 
I seriously doubt it was something the hijackers counted on. It might have been a "If the pilot has turned it on, it might be worth listening out for" situation, but given that it's a toss up if it's on or not, and the chance of delays leading to the two planes not being on the same frequency at the same time, I really doubt it was planned.

Also, why risk exposing the plot? Especially if there were far safer methods for communication between the cell members (ie. cell phones). Wasn't it pretty much due to Atta's slip-up that the controllers realised it was a hijacking and not just an aircraft gone astray?
 
Boone 870 said:
8:24:38- "We have some planes. Just stay quiet and you'll be okay. We are returning to the airport."

8:24:56- "Nobody move. Everything will be okay. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane."

8:33:59- "Nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves."

Source
Click to expand...

Its all pure conjecture and guesswork but we do have the the notion that they are speaking to and encouraging each other so these messages to the passengers could in fact be messages to the other aircraft.

8:24:38- "We have some planes. Just stay quiet and you'll be okay. We are returning to the airport."
We are in command of our plane. You are clear to make your own move. We are heading to the target"

8:24:56- "Nobody move. Everything will be okay. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane."
the first hijacking is still going as plannedassuming they could see the towers from 22 minutes out?

8:33:59- "Nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves."
We have the target in sight
 
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Too much is being made of this. The intercom panel can be confusing in that it's easy to make switchology errors. Even veteran pilots do it on occassion. I seriously doubt that was one of the items they studied in detail anyway. The panels are not standard, each airline uses different models of Intercoms for the same type of aircraft, so how would they obtain that info? It's more plausible to me that Atta simply made a switchology error
 
Reheat said:
It's more plausible to me that Atta simply made a switchology error.
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I tend to agree with you about this, Reheat. There are too many "what if's" in the equation to form an opinion that the hijackers intentionally broadcast over the frequency. Just thinking out loud, so to speak.
 
I bought the book last night. 100 pages in, it is a good read. Nothing earth shattering as of yet, but very interesting.
 
Mr.Herbert said:
I bought the book last night. 100 pages in, it is a good read. Nothing earth shattering as of yet, but very interesting.
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Indeed. I´m gone through most of the book and, to be honest, I´m not impressed. OK, part 4 was good. Farmer presents the wrong NORAD timelines and states reasons for the conclusion that NORAD knowingly lied to the public. Has some new details on NORAD logs, but much of what is told is already known due to the NARA publication of the 9/11 Commission documents. However, this chapter was an interesting read.
Part 1-2 mainly consists of information from the writings of Coll, Wright, Zegart, and the 9/11 CR. And people who aren´t familiar with the NORAD Tapes will learn something while reading part 3. Haven´t read part 5 yet.
 
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Mr.Herbert said:
I bought the book last night. 100 pages in, it is a good read. Nothing earth shattering as of yet, but very interesting.
Click to expand...

yah I figure it will read like a more detailed version of Shenon's "The commission". Can't wait for it to arrive.

TAM:)
 
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