The GREAT Presidents...

crimresearch said:
"....And Japanese internment, while not as bad as what the Nazis did, is ultimately the same method: putting certain races and ethnic groups in concentration camps."

And later this year, I will be helping to put thousands of Boy Scouts into fenced compounds, where they will be forced to sleep in tents, cook their own meals over open fires, and not allowed to leave until the authorities permit it..

Just another 'concentration' camp as well?

:rolleyes:
Typical "blame America first" mentality that calls WW II Nisei internment camps "concentration camps" and taking photos of naked POWs "torture."

Sloppy language like this - deliberate or otherwise - minimizes the horrors of, and inure us to, the real thing.
 
shanek said:
I have presented copious evidence for my side.
Once again, I'll ask you to provide evidence, copious or not, for your assertion that Lincoln "shuts down newspapers and puts editors in jail for having the audacity to print articles critical of the war..." Start another thread if you like.
 
Regnad Kcin said:
Once again, I'll ask you to provide evidence, copious or not, for your assertion that Lincoln "shuts down newspapers and puts editors in jail for having the audacity to print articles critical of the war..." Start another thread if you like.

I have provided evidence, every single time it's been brought up. Do you deny he shut down the Chicago Times?

And Larspeart, how dare you accuse me of going off-topic when I'm merely responding to claims made by others?
 
shanek said:
And Larspeart, how dare you accuse me of going off-topic when I'm merely responding to claims made by others?
Spare us your righteous indignation. Since his OP asked us to name who we thought were the five greatest presidents, and you named only two (Washington and Polk), without making the slightest attempt to justify your selections (did you think the other 41 were uniformly awful?), while sending post after post after post proving that Lincoln was the worst president we ever had with the possible exception of Hitler, Genghis Khan, and Satan, I'd say he was more or less on the mark.

So who are your number 3, 4, and 5?

And why?
 
So, what, we're only supposed to talk about the Presidents we think are great and not take issue at all with other people's choices?

This is a skeptic board. We don't work that way.
 
shanek said:
So, what, we're only supposed to talk about the Presidents we think are great and not take issue at all with other people's choices?

This is a skeptic board. We don't work that way.
So how about posting some of your choices, and your reasons, so people can take issue with them (if they care to get into a discussion with someone whose rhetorical style reminds me of someone who's got your lapels in his fists while he screams in your face...)?
 
Regnad Kcin said:
Once again, I'll ask you to provide evidence, copious or not, for your assertion that Lincoln "shuts down newspapers and puts editors in jail for having the audacity to print articles critical of the war..." Start another thread if you like.

It depends on how many nits you want to pick at...
If Lincoln's suspension of civil rights causes editors and papers to be afraid to publish for fear of jail under Lincon's martial law and executive orders , how has their freedom of speech, and freedom of the press, NOT been 'shut down' by him?

And if Burnside arrests an opposition politician for his campaign speeches, and sends troops to stop the presses at the Chicago Sun-Times under the authority granted him by the President's new orders, how is it not Lincoln's doing?
Did he courtmartial Burnside for it? No, he didn't...he backpedalled, which is a far cry from not being responsible for allowing it to happen in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When the war began, Lincoln decreed by executive order that all people who discouraged enlistment in the army or otherwise engaged in disloyal practices would be subject to martial law. This presidential action suspended the writ of habeas corpus (which prevents the government from holding citizens without trial). Between fifteen thousand and twenty thousand citizens, mostly from the border states, were arrested on suspicion of disloyal acts.
The most notorious Copperhead, Clement Vallandigham, a former Ohio congressman, was arrested by the military commander of Ohio in May 1863 for advocating -- in his campaign for governor -- a negotiated peace and antiwar demonstrations. A military court convicted him of treason and sentenced him to confinement for the duration of the war. Lincoln banished him behind Confederate lines to keep him from becoming a martyr.'"
http://www.americanpresident.org/history/abrahamlincoln/biography/DomesticAffairs.common.shtml
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
shanek said:
So, what, we're only supposed to talk about the Presidents we think are great and not take issue at all with other people's choices?

This is a skeptic board. We don't work that way.

"We"? You are not a skeptic. You are a political propagandist.

Please, please don't put yourself on the same level as Randi, Shermer, Plait, Nickell and Dawkins. Have some respect.
 
BPSCG said:
So how about posting some of your choices, and your reasons, so people can take issue with them (if they care to get into a discussion with someone whose rhetorical style reminds me of someone who's got your lapels in his fists while he screams in your face...)?

I had them all through FDR graded on that thread that disappeared. I haven't gotten a straight answer from anyone at JREF as to what happened to that thread. I'm actually rather p!ssed off about it, because I put a LOT of work into that thread.

Basically, there were no other Presidents on the caliber of Washington and Polk, but there were others who stood above the crowd.

Jefferson was up there, of course, but he showed a cavaleir attitude towards the Constitution with the Louisiana Purchase and badly miscalculated the effect of his embargo against England and France.

Madison was great, too, but like Jefferson, he badly miscalculated the effects of his foreign policy, which most likely caused the War of 1812.

Franklin Pierce surely deserves more note than he gets. It was no mean feat achieving peace in Kansas, and his solutions could have healed the rift between the northern and southern states. But he lost the nomination for his second term, because the Democrats didn't want such a controversial figure.

Like Pierce, the other great ones, in my opinion, are some of the lesser known ones: Rutherford B. Hayes, Grover Cleveland, and Warren G. Harding. Harding, in my opinion, is the last great President.
 
CFLarsen said:
"We"? You are not a skeptic. You are a political propagandist.

Please, please don't put yourself on the same level as Randi, Shermer, Plait, Nickell and Dawkins. Have some respect.

NO, NO NOT SHERMER! He is an evil pseudo-skeptic libertarian like ourselves! He is yet another evil libertarian infiltrator in the skeptical movement! Just like those Penn & Teller clowns!

OH GOD OUR GOOD SKEPTICAL DEMOCRATIC TRADITION IS BEING THREATENED BY THE LIBERTARIAN MENACE

:rolleyes:
 
BPSCG said:
Typical "blame America first" mentality that calls WW II Nisei internment camps "concentration camps" and taking photos of naked POWs "torture."

Sloppy language like this - deliberate or otherwise - minimizes the horrors of, and inure us to, the real thing.

The only reason they are called internment camps is so they aren't called the same thing the Germans stuck the jews and others into.
 
shanek said:
I had them all through FDR graded on that thread that disappeared. I haven't gotten a straight answer from anyone at JREF as to what happened to that thread. I'm actually rather p!ssed off about it, because I put a LOT of work into that thread.

Basically, there were no other Presidents on the caliber of Washington and Polk, but there were others who stood above the crowd.

Jefferson was up there, of course, but he showed a cavaleir attitude towards the Constitution with the Louisiana Purchase and badly miscalculated the effect of his embargo against England and France.

Madison was great, too, but like Jefferson, he badly miscalculated the effects of his foreign policy, which most likely caused the War of 1812.

Franklin Pierce surely deserves more note than he gets. It was no mean feat achieving peace in Kansas, and his solutions could have healed the rift between the northern and southern states. But he lost the nomination for his second term, because the Democrats didn't want such a controversial figure.

Like Pierce, the other great ones, in my opinion, are some of the lesser known ones: Rutherford B. Hayes, Grover Cleveland, and Warren G. Harding. Harding, in my opinion, is the last great President.

I would imagine that being a good president would result in you not being well-known; bad policies that, nevertheless, appeal to the general populace make good presidents.
 
Sushi said:
The only reason they are called internment camps is so they aren't called the same thing the Germans stuck the jews and others into.

The ONLY reason??
So they aren't called by different names because the treatment and conditions were somehow....oh, I don't know...a little.....
DIFFERENT???
 
crimresearch said:
The ONLY reason??
So they aren't called by different names because the treatment and conditions were somehow....oh, I don't know...a little.....
DIFFERENT???

Like most "skeptics" here, you follow your gut reactions and emotions instead of looking at it rationally--indeed, your post is laden with emotionality. There were even concentration camps before WWII.

Here, let's even look what the dictionary calls a "concentration camp":

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=concentration camp


Wikipedia has a good article on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp

Oh? What's this???

The term Internment Camp is often used as a euphemistic equivalent in other historical contexts, such as the imprisonment by the United States of German-American people during both World War I and World War II, the internment of enemy aliens, and the exclusion and relocation (much of it forced) of American citizens born of enemy ancestry (including Japanese-Americans) during World War II. The relocation camps (such as Manzanar) in the 1940s did not involve extermination like Nazi death camps. Nevertheless, they remain a severe blot on the human rights record of the United States.

Same duck, different name.

Of course, a "skeptic" like you will insist to deny and will probably resort to semantics to try to make me somehow wrong.
 
Well, I'm skeptic enough to see through your transparent semantic derailment games, so I'll do until a real skeptic comes along.

And I suspect that we have seen all we are going to see of you posting in either a rational or a factual manner..which is to say, not at all.

Or you could prove me wrong and answer the simple questions instead of doing such an inept job of tap dancing around the fact that you have neither facts, nor answers.
 
crimresearch said:
Well, I'm skeptic enough to see through your transparent semantic derailment games, so I'll do until a real skeptic comes along.

And I suspect that we have seen all we are going to see of you posting in either a rational or a factual manner..which is to say, not at all.

Or you could prove me wrong and answer the simple questions instead of doing such an inept job of tap dancing around the fact that you have neither facts, nor answers.

Ah, the ol' "fingers in the ears" game.
 
You know why Andrew Jackson excecuted that soldier?

He had a 17 year old soldier under his command excecuted because he didn't clean his cooking gear.

That's it.

Truthfully most of the information about Andrew Jackson strikes me as him being a really big scumbag.

-INRM
 
shanek said:
Which might be a point if a) Lincoln didn't come up with this "we're waging the war to free the slaves" claim until late in 1862, and b) a war was in any way needed to free the slaves, which it wasn't.

Oh?

Posit:

1) If the Civil War hadn't happened, or if the southern states had gotten what they wanted, we would be more federalist than nationalist; if we did split and stayed separate countries, both countries would have been smaller.

2) If the country was smaller, either literally or in the size of government, we wouldn't have been able to fund WWI, and if we were federalist we most likely wouldn't have even entered the war to begin with.

3) If we hadn't entered WWI, the victory would not have been as decisive, therefore, Britan and the allies wouldn't have been able to pass the horrible Treaty of Versailles; it's also less likely the Russian Revolution would have happened, or if it did, had been a victory for the Communists.

4) Without the Treaty of Versailles, the economic conditions which allowed the Nazis to come to power would not have existed. With no Communism in Russia, no Soviet Union would have been created.

Therefore:

If Lincoln hadn't invaded the Confederacy, then we very likely wouldn't have gone into WWI, and that would have likely meant no Nazis, and therefore no WWII, and no Communists in Russia, and therefore no Cold War (and no Korean War, Vietnam, no arming of Afghanistan and other places where the terrorists ended up popping up from...). It all goes back to Lincoln.

You have a frighteningly simplistic view of history. There is absolutely no way you can deduct that, without Lincoln, there would not have been a Hitler.

A very common strategy with political extremists: Find one scapegoat and pin all your troubles on him.

I have no idea where you have learned history, but you should demand your tuition fees back.
 
Sushi said:
Also, this is the horrible, horrible president is the man who ORDERED THE JAPANESE (and other minorities in some places, I've heard) into CONCENTRATION CAMPS, making them lose their homes and their livelihood. Strange, I can think of German dictators who did something remotely similar, although obviously on a worse scale...

There is no way you can rationally argue that the internment camps were even remotely similar to the Nazi extermination camps. It is revisionist history of the worst kind.

Sushi said:
I am quite amused to see some attempt to lessen the "sin" because someone else did worse. I don't care what other tyrants did by comparison, each act will stand on its own. And Japanese internment, while not as bad as what the Nazis did, is ultimately the same method: putting certain races and ethnic groups in concentration camps.

So yes, while the Nazis did worse, they both did the same thing in regards to putting a popularly disliked race away.

You have completely misunderstood what the Holocaust was about. Please read some history. And understand what you read.
 
Sushi said:
Slavery is a non-contractual agreement; Libertarians are all about consent.

Well, if you don't "consent" to what Libertarians think, you go to jail....
 

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